George Goodman Interview, date unknown

MARSHALL: You were born in Saginaw and then you, uh, your, your parents brought you to Ypsilanti.

GOODMAN: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: Now, I’m—

GOODMAN: When I was 14 months old.

MARSHALL: When you were 14 months old. So the rest of your life you spent right here in, uh, in other words—

GOODMAN: Right.

MARSHALL: …you’re really an Ypsilantian. Um, now, where’d you go to elementary school?

GOODMAN: I went to Roosevelt.

MARSHALL: Was that an elementary school too?

GOODMAN: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: Oh, you were all the way through, then.

GOODMAN: Right.

MARSHALL: That’s right. I knew they had an elementary school.

GOODMAN: Um, the kindergarten at that time was in the Welch Hall.

MARSHALL: Yeah. Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: Where the, well, it’s not there now,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …but the ROTC department used to be there.

MARSHALL: Yeah. Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: And I don’t know what’s, well that part of Welch Hall, uh, they tore down when they built that little plaza there.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: Between, uh, Welch and, uh, McKenny Union, I think it was. But I went 00:01:00to first grade though the sixth grade on the first floor of the Roosevelt building that’s up on campus now,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: …and then the high school was up, y’know, on the, uh, third floor.

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.

GOODMAN: And, uh, so we, really, you didn’t have to go outside the building, and the school was so small that all the kids ate in the cafeteria at the same time.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: And so forth.

MARSHALL: And then you, uh, and, and and, now when you were, when you were, when you were, when you were growing up, that was when your mother had the business [down there].

GOODMAN: Right.

MARSHALL: On, uh, Harriet Street, yeah, uh-huh.

GOODMAN: I think they, I think they built that store on Harriet in about, oh, 1948. ’47, ’48. Somewhere in there. Uh, yeah, because my grandfather, I 00:02:00remember was at the dedication, and they still have the record that they made at that dedication ceremony that we get out and play every so often and play when my folks come over to the house, uh, ’cause he died in, uh, 1949.

MARSHALL: Oh.

GOODMAN: And I was in the fourth grade when he died. My father was born in Ypsilanti, uh, up on First avenue there; well, y’know, we still owned, owned the house.

MARSHALL: Yeah. Yeah.

GOODMAN: Uh, in 1895,

MARSHALL: Uh.

GOODMAN: …and, my grandfather came to Ypsi, um, from Canada. But prior to 00:03:00going up into Canada, they came up from, uh, the South, and I have to go back and talk to my dad about all that, uh, the movement back and forth, because I don’t…

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …really recall, uh, all the sequences of it, events in terms of, my great-, well it would be my great-grandfather…

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.

GOODMAN: But my father’s grandfather, uh, was in fact a slave, and I’m not, I can’t remember specifically about my own grandfather, um, I believe he was, and he ended up being a freed man. But when he came to Ypsilanti, he got a job working for the city, and, that’s how he ended up, y’know, being in that crew that helped build that, uh, the, water tower there.

MARSHALL: The water tower, yeah.

GOODMAN: Yeah. He was, uh, a laborer.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh. And your, uh, and evidently your, uh, great-grandfather, 00:04:00having come over from Canada, was a laborer too.

GOODMAN: Um, yeah, he was, I’m not sure, I don’t recall exactly what he did.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: Uh, now my, my, my father tells me that, uh, that, uh, his grandfather used to live on Second Avenue, where, well, right over in that area where, uh, the Kerseys live now?

MARSHALL: Oh yeah, uh-huh.

GOODMAN: Um, yeah, Mrs. Kersey, I don’t remember her first name right offhand, but she died here few years back but she lived in the house there for a long time. Uh, I think she was a cook, and, um, my great-grandfather’s name was John Goodman, but I, I haven’t really heard my dad talk that much about what 00:05:00he did, y’know, specifically…I’ve heard my father talk about, uh, what he did as a kid growing up in the community, uh, hauling coal, and, had a, one of these little carts that he’d push around collecting rags and junk and stuff,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: …uh. He’s had a variety of experiences in his life, uh…

MARSHALL: Anything that would make you [mannot] as [vivid]. (laughs)

GOODMAN: He lived in, well, he’s, he’s lived in two or three different cities, ’cause of course he lived in Detroit for a while, he lived in Ohio for a while…

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: …he worked in a coal mine, and, uh, then the bulk of his, his adult life, uh, well, before he retired of course, was spent in the factory.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

GOODMAN: ’Cause I think when he retired from Ford’s he had about 37 years and, uh, there at the Ford Motor Company.

MARSHALL: [Go ahead.] Well, now your mother [now] didn’t work at Ford, [unintelligible].

GOODMAN: Oh no. She—my mother is from Viana, Georgia…

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: …and, uh, we went down through, uh, her hometown when we went to Florida over the holidays. But she was a teenager when, uh, their whole family came up here, or, I, I say teenager, she was in the 11, 12, 13-year-old range, somewhere in there. And they moved from, uh, Viana to Ecorse and, uh, a short while after they came north, her mother died, ’cause she was ill, and then her 00:07:00father, uh, I don’t recall exactly what he did, uh, I know he was a baseball player, uh, when he was in the South, but I don’t believe it was on a professional team of any sort. Um, but, she, uh, lived there in Ecorse, uh, till I guess up till the time that she got married. And I guess she’s been living…she’s been living in Ypsilanti since, I think probably the ’30s.

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah?

GOODMAN: Uh, y’know, herself…

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

GOODMAN: …but she, uh, operated a store originally, when they first, uh, built the house that they live in on Madison Street now. Uh, she had a, hat 00:08:00shop, or what do you— millinery goods? And, uh, then they got the idea after they saved up some money to build a store which is the one that they went ahead and built down on, uh, the Harriet Street, and at the time, my father tells me that, uh, he had difficulty getting a loan from the Savings Bank. Uh, so he just saved up his money, uh, and came up with enough, plus, y’know, some of his friends that he knew that had certain skills, uh, worked for him. John Bass and Sam Bass’ father, uh, helped him with the store. Mose, er, not Mose, uh, what’s old man Bass’ name—I think he’s, he’s dead now, but 00:09:00uh—anyway, he, he was a brick mason…

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.

GOODMAN: …and he helped him…

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: …build that store down there.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: And you know, uh, was Mr. Reeves still living when you all came to Ypsi? [Jace] Reeves? Uh, maybe he died already, but the Reeves family came up from the South, oh, in the mid-40s, I guess, and they built a house kitty-corner across the street from where my folks lived. And, he had some monies from someplace, ’cause he bought up that whole, uh, that whole block practically, uh, built homes for his whole family, between Madison and, uh, Secon—er, between First Avenue and Second Avenue.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: But now he was a contractor here in Ypsilanti, a cement contractor. And he poured the basement uh, in the floor, uh, of the store down there.

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah?

GOODMAN: I remember that. I think this man is in Ypsilanti now, uh, he’s a minister. He’s also a contractor, named English.

MARSHALL: Oh, uh-huh.

GOODMAN: Think he lives on First, er, Harriet up there, someplace. But at any rate, he, he used to do a little work for my dad. But now my mother, uh, really, she never did work, other than in the store.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: Uh, she ran the dress shop, uh, of course, and he hired two or three ladies for the beauty shop,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …the beauty parlor downstairs.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: Uh, that was all she did, really. And that store—they were in business until, uh, sixty-four, I think it was, when the Urban Renewal program 00:11:00came in…

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: …and Urban Renewal bought ’em out, and uh, ’course, they tore that whole area down when they built, uh, those Parkview Apartments there, across from the, the barber shop. And the store used to sit, uh, right across the street there, from, uh, where Hall’s Barber Shop is.

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh. [How old is that, when they do that?]

GOODMAN: Hall?

MARSHALL: Yeah. Or buildings in that area, at that time.

GOODMAN: Uh, no, I don’t think so. He, he built that smaller shop first, but that’s the only thing he, he had there, and then he built those apartments, y’know, in the back, I believe.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: But he’s sort of a later addition to, uh, to Ypsilanti.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: And I can’t remember right now what the, the general timing period 00:12:00is, I’d say, in the mid, mid-50s, or someplace back in there was probably when he built that, uh, first barber shop.

MARSHALL: Do you remember, do you remember when Ypsilanti elected its first council, its first black council? [That] you don’t have any recollection [unintelligible]—little too young—

GOODMAN: That was, uh, that was in the 40s. That was, uh,

MARSHALL: That was this—[guy] that recently died in Detroit.

GOODMAN: Yeah, uh,

MARSHALL: Yeah. [James Avery was his name.] But then I think the next one then was, uh, Washington.

GOODMAN: All right. Amos Washington, um, well, Amos Washington served on Council and then he also served on the school board.

MARSHALL: School board, right. What kind of guy was Amos Washington?

GOODMAN: He was, uh, very, uh, very businesslike, uh, y’know, very much, uh, 00:13:00uh, very articulate, uh, had a great, he was a tall guy, y’know, kind of slim, bald-headed.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: Uh, but was, y’know, he was one of these no-nonsense people. He was the manager, uh, er, director, rather, of the Public Housing Program when the, uh, the projects were built up there on Armstrong. And, uh, y’know, the man had a, had a good reputation, of ’course, he was another one of these blacks I think that got in this whole thing that we were talking about earlier as far as, y’know, he—some of ’em didn’t like him because he, ’cause he had, y’know, too much close affiliation with the white folks, uh…(laughs)

MARSHALL: And it was worse then than it is now. (laughs)

GOODMAN: Yeah. But, uh, y’know, he, he ran that Public Housing Program and ran 00:14:00it well, and, uh, you didn’t have all that, all that confusion and what have you back in those days with Public Housing that you got now, ’cause the Public Housing Project was run efficiently. And you didn’t see a lot of debris and trash and what have you, and if you didn’t pay your rent, you got put out (laughs). Simple as that. And of course he was involved in, y’know, a lot of community organizations and so forth, but…He was one of the, uh, few blacks that I can remember as a kid, ’course I was, I was really young, but I can remember just in what I can recall other adults in the community reflecting on the, that I thought he y’know, had made a real good contribution to the community. Uh, but I was in a situation, of course, where I would be more apt to hear that kind of discussion simply because of the background that I had, and, 00:15:00uh, the kinds of people and friends and acquaintances that my folks had, at that time.

MARSHALL: You were here, uh, you were here also when Reverend Smith—

GOODMAN: Oh yes.

MARSHALL: took [on top].

GOODMAN: Yes. I remember, uh,

MARSHALL: What, uh, what do you remember about him? What kind of guy was he?

GOODMAN: Well, Reverend Smith was a very down-to-earth, practical, uh, jovial, but also, uh, very intelligent, uh, person, and had a good rapport with, with the older members of the congregation as well as the younger members of the congregation. I remember I was just talking about Reverend Smith the other day, when I was in the car with somebody, and I was relating my experience going up 00:16:00to Camp [Baver]. Right after they had opened that camp, in Cassopolis?

MARSHALL: Mmm.

GOODMAN: And Reverend Smith, uh, came up that Sunday after the session was over for that week, to bring, uh, a carload of us back to Ypsilanti. And he was driving down that little two-lane highway, and he was sitting there, just holding on that steering wheel and driving 80 miles an hour, I guess, just flying. And he come up behind a car, and, he’d say, “All right—there’s no parking allowed on this highway—

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: …you want to park on this highway you gotta move out of here.”

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: But he, uh, he, uh, he gave the young people in the church at that time a feeling that their contribution was really significant, and, y’know, everybody liked him, and he, he, he was active in the community, he got involved with the white, uh, church groups, y’know, the power structure of them big 00:17:00churches downtown, the Methodists and the Baptists and all that, he was uh, president of their ministerial group and, and started up that, uh,—I think it was Reverend Smith that started the, uh, thing that you have now, uh, the Brotherhood Banquet, uh, at Brown Chapel.

MARSHALL: [I’m facial with that], first, first Brotherhood Banquet.

GOODMAN: But he was just, uh, and he was, (laugh), he was a little [pit] fella, y’know, kind of rotund, but he was short, uh, and, just, just a fun person to be around, when you was around him you never—he never gave you the impression that he was a minister.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: Or, y’know, there was any distance back there because he was a man of the cloth. And, very similar, I think, uh, an individual was also Reverend Daniels.

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.

GOODMAN: Reverend Daniels also, I believe, uh, ’course, see in Reverend Daniels’ case now, I probably had a much closer identification with Reverend Daniels because when he came to town, he brought with him a family and most of his family, his, his children, uh, were in my general age range, like his older daughter and I are the same age. And his youngest son, uh, James, I remember when he was born, ’cause I was, uh, I guess I must have been eleven, twelve, thirt—oh, whatever that age span is now between us, but we—Reverend Daniels’ kids and myself and our other friends of course all sorta participated in the various church activities, the choir and the usher [board], and different church programs. So I—the, the Daniels family has been very 00:19:00close to me personally, uh, simply because we shared our friendship as far as family members were concerned, and we’d visit, and I’d go down there to the parsonage and visit with his family kids, and I was just, y’know, another one of the members of the household sometime.

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh-huh.

GOODMAN: And then, well, after, well, of course, after Reverend Daniels, uh, left, I, the sequence of ministers I can’t remember, I remember George Powell and, uh, Reverend Anderson, and there was another older gentleman and—Anderson, he didn’t die, though, did he?

MARSHALL: No.

GOODMAN: He was rotated.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: I don’t know where he went, uh, somewhere, I guess.

MARSHALL: Anderson, Anderson went to, uh, [unintelligible] Indiana.

GOODMAN: OK. I was going to say, [thaymy], think I recall from Indiana.

MARSHALL: Yeah. Well, I, I, of course, these are people I didn’t know. Now, Washington, y’know, went to Lincoln.

GOODMAN: Oh, is that right?

MARSHALL: [I was looking I said to Jerry], I knew him, through by mail.

GOODMAN: Oh yes.

MARSHALL: Now I remember writing up this thing about him, that he had, that he—that he was on the school board at that time, and I had said only gossip!

GOODMAN: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: And ’course, by the time I got to Ypsilanti, uh, he was, he was dead. But, uh, those people interest me. Um, I guess one of the things that I’m interested in is, uh, is the uh, is the development of the, of the uh, political astuteness, or whatever you would call it, of the black people. Over, over your lifetime.

GOODMAN: Well, the key political figure over my lifetime of course has been John Burton, in terms of the black community. But you had on council, uh, oh, 00:21:00what’s the guy’s name, uh, Charlie Jackson was on Council for a term. See, we had two blacks on Council for a while there, when we was still at at-large elections.

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah?

GOODMAN: So, uh, and, and that was one of the reasons that I didn’t, uh, support that new charter that we passed back in ’73, because there hadn’t really been a specific problem in getting blacks on the council in Ypsilanti, because, after the first one got elected, uh, then, y’know, blacks would regularly run and had been successful. Sam Bass was a member of Council for either one or two terms and then of course, later in my era, Norman Kennedy and Paul Clay. And then up to the current time, of course, Doug Harrison and Jerome 00:22:00Strong. But, in terms of, of influence in the community, uh, I’ve always felt that John Burton was a very important influence, uh, on my life, because he was in politics when I was a kid. And I watched and observed the workings of the city council, and, y’know, different things that were going on in the community as I was growing up.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: But I was, I was not uh, here in the community at the time that he was elected mayor by the council, because that was during the time that I was in the service. And he was finishing up his term as mayor when I came back to Ypsilanti. I think he was a mayor for two, two, uh, two terms, but those, in those days of course they were one-year uh terms. But the basic thing that I recall about black, uh, political involvement was that the black community 00:23:00learned well the lesson of how to vote, when they went to vote, in order to get the black to win, because, if you had three or four candidates running, and if a black candidate, y’know, was running, then they would go in there and vote for the black—

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …and, and leave, and that, that was the only way that, y’know, they could get the black to win.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

GOODMAN: And they’ve, they’ve been a student about, y’know, that kind of business, uh, for y’know, a long long time.

MARSHALL: Ah-huh.

GOODMAN: Uh, on the school board, of course I remember, uh, Dr. Perry. Dr. Perry, uh, was a very prominent, uh, black dentist in Ypsilanti, uh, and he was my dentist, my family’s dentist, up until his death. Um, but again, was, 00:24:00y’know, a very, uh, articulate, very bright, uh, just kind of a slow-paced man, uh, very deliberately had anything to say, and um, when he said it, he’d given a lot of thought to it. Wasn’t particularly uh, y’know, outgoing or whatever, he wouldn’t be the type that you would ask to stand up and give a big address anywhere, but was clearly a man that everybody listened to when he had something to say. And of course, y’know, his daughter and his wife and so forth are right here…

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: …still in the community, making a good contribution. As well as his children. They’re not in Ypsi, well, besides [Winnie],

MARSHALL: Some are gone, yeah.

GOODMAN: Uh, [Cole] I’ve known for all my life, [Cole’s] a few years older than I am, and the other Perry brother. But, uh, well, I’d say that the school 00:25:00situation has been the most difficult in terms of blacks, uh. [We’ve] in recent years, in the past 15 years, I’d say, we’ve had a black on the school board.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: But up until I’d say the 50s, um, black uh, participation as far as the board of education was concerned, other than, uh, Dr. Perry, wasn’t, wasn’t there at all. Though, our uh, Amos Washington, I, uh, don’t remember what year he was on, uh, the school board, I, I don’t remember whether it was Council or the school board that he went to first.

MARSHALL: [unintelligible] sleepy. [TAPE STOPS, RESUMES] Now, let’s see 00:26:00we’ll take it up where I, where I got so sleepy I had to cut it off, (laughs) um, ’course, you grew up and went to uh, college here, and—what were some of the things you did while you were growing up?

GOODMAN: Uh, well, when I grew up of course, I was active with the youth chapter of the NAACP.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

GOODMAN: And I was quite active in the church

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

GOODMAN: …at that time. Participated in all of the different church groups, uh, for young people, and was involved in the district, uh, groups and so forth. And uh, fought, uh, through the NAACP, to, uh, integrate skating rinks in the 00:27:00local community and uh, was involved with the NAACP uh, when we, uh, tried to go to bat to get the pictures removed from applications for employment, uh, dormitory applications at the university, and things of that nature. Um, when I was in high school, of course, I was quite active as a student leader in the high school ’cause I was president of the student council when I was a senior in high school.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

GOODMAN: I was a member of the Student Council through high school, and, uh, y’know, those kinds of things, basically, until I, uh, got into college, I wasn’t really an athlete, so I didn’t play any kind of athletics when I went to college. I played football in high school. But I was just sort of there,

MARSHALL: Yeah. (laughs)

GOODMAN: I didn’t, uh, wasn’t particularly good at what I did. And I, 00:28:00y’know, went on to college and went to, uh, ROTC.

MARSHALL: Oh, you did ROTC in college?

GOODMAN: Yeah.

MARSHALL: When did you and Judy meet?

GOODMAN: Hm?

MARSHALL: Did Judy go to high school with you?

GOODMAN: No, uh, she went to University School and we met, really, um, when we were seniors in high school.

MARSHALL: Oh, Ah-hah.

GOODMAN: And then we started dating, um, latter part of the senior year in high school

MARSHALL: Mh-hmm.

GOODMAN: …and then we just sort of picked up from there and both went to Eastern so we continued uh, dating one another there. And, well, we got married 00:29:00after she finished her degree…

MARSHALL: Mh-hmm.

GOODMAN: …but I had another semester to go but then I stretched it into two because I, uh, wanted to—I didn’t want to have to go on active duty when I got my commission in the middle of the year,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …so I just worked full time and took my split load.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

GOODMAN: Uh, and got my degree in sixty, uh, three, she finished in ’62. Uh, and then in sixty—she taught for that first year down at, uh, Liberty School in Highland Park.

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.

GOODMAN: …commuted back and forth and we lived over in uh, married student housing…

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.

GOODMAN: Cornell Courts, for a year, uh, and then when I graduated and got my commission in ’63 we left Ypsi and went on active duty. We spent three years 00:30:00in Germany…

MARSHALL: Mh-hmm.

GOODMAN: …and that’s where uh, George was born…

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …he was born in ’65. And then, uh, we came back here in ’66, yeah, and I got out of the service in, uh, February of 1967…

MARSHALL: Mh-hmm.

GOODMAN: …and started teaching at, uh, Roosevelt, and then the following, well, and then in July of ’68, I uh, started working over at the University.

MARSHALL: Mh-hmm.

GOODMAN: But I also was active when I was in college with the young Democrats…

MARSHALL: Oh, huh.

GOODMAN: …uh, and well, I’ve always more or less enjoyed politics and so forth. I studied— uh, my major in college was Political Science…

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah?

GOODMAN: …and I minored in History and Sociology.

MARSHALL: Mh-hmm.

GOODMAN: But I really didn’t have a real interest in history per se, uh, in the sense of some of the things that I’m now beginning to…

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …want to get in to, uh. Y’know, I just, uh, enjoyed studying history, ’cause I enjoyed reading about various things, but I, I never would have re-, referred to myself as a historian, y’know, by any stretch of the imagination,

MARSHALL: Or as a history buff.

GOODMAN: …or a history buff, right.

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: But I have, I have probably gained a much better, and, and deeper appreciation of, of general history…

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …and certainly black history, in the past, uh, 10 years.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: And I think some of that just comes with, y’know, maturity

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …and, um, having had a combination of various experiences that were 00:32:00directly relevant…

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …to certain things that you’ve done in your life.

MARSHALL: Now, when I got, um, first, first got to know you [END OF TAPE 1]’cause I [didn’t get to] know you, that’s when I met you,

GOODMAN: Yeah.

MARSHALL: …and uh, this young fella, whose name I don’t remember, but you probably remember his name, who got in there at, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, uh, decided to run, and decided to vote.

GOODMAN: And, uh, Joe [Lewis], Jim Joe [Lewis],

MARSHALL: Jim Joe [Lewis].

GOODMAN: Right.

MARSHALL: Well, anyway, I remember that, that was the first incident I remember about you, because I remember from then on, I had a sort of a commitment (laughs), so whenever you did run, you were going to have my support. But I remember that particular instance, and I remember you telling me about it. But now that must have been after we became neighbors.

GOODMAN: Yeah, probably so.

MARSHALL: [’Cause I don’t] remember you before that.

GOODMAN: Well, see, when you first came to town, the first time I ever remember meeting you was when you lived on Whittier, in that big white house?

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: Staying in somebody’s house while you were—

MARSHALL: Yeah, that was, uh, [Walt Irving’s] house.

GOODMAN: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: And, I think the first time I actually met you was during my campaign.

MARSHALL: Ohhh, yeah.

GOODMAN: In ’69. Because I came in, uh, doing some door to door and I had several names…

MARSHALL: Mh-hmm.

GOODMAN: …on a list of special people that I wanted to be sure to, y’know,

MARSHALL: Mm, mm.

GOODMAN: …get to meet. Now, did you come to Ypsi in ’69, or—

MARSHALL: Yeah, I came in ’69.

GOODMAN: ’69, yeah.

MARSHALL: But I don’t—I don’t know people I know I met, see, I could have met, I, couldn’t remember exactly, but I was meeting so many people in those days.

GOODMAN: Right.

MARSHALL: But the one thing I do remember is that, uh, the [Klammers] had given me the [Manfields],

GOODMAN: Oh, yeah, right.

MARSHALL: So even before I came here to go to work, when I was coming here to 00:34:00visit the school, to look at the school. I visited the [Mansfields].

GOODMAN: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: And, uh, now I was suspected through the [Manfields], somewhere along in there, I met your mother and father.

GOODMAN: Yeah, right.

MARSHALL: But I can’t remember exactly when.

GOODMAN: Uh-huh.

MARSHALL: And then I do remember that little incident, I remember that this guy had come in, and you had, you had, uh, been planning to run and you thought you would be the only person and this guy comes in and [plows], and never [find] divide the vote.

GOODMAN: That’s right.

MARSHALL: And, uh, you said at that time he didn’t win, and he was going to keep you from winning. (laughs)

GOODMAN: Right.

MARSHALL: Ay, sure.

GOODMAN: Well, I’ve also, uh, over the years of course been involved in some international things because, um, my wife and I both were exchange students when we graduated from high school.

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah?

GOODMAN: Though Youth for Understanding.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: And, up until about three years ago, I used to be on the Board of Directors.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: And then they moved to Washington.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: ’Cause their, their headquarters used to be in Ann Arbor, and, but I have been involved in a lot of work with the organization, and I still get involved, y’know, a little bit, I haven’t done anything in the past couple of years directly with them,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …but, uh, I had an opportunity to travel quite a bit, uh, as a result of my working with that particular group, and that, through that I really, I have to give that particular experience and opportunity that I had credit as far as, uh, the way, the way I feel about traveling in other countries.

MARSHALL: Mh-hmm.

GOODMAN: ’Course, my family always traveled, my father always took a long vacation every summer and we was gone for a month or six weeks, uh, all the 00:36:00time, we were going someplace, uh, and I can remember when I was eleven, I think, elev—yeah, the first time that I, that we took a real long trip, I was eleven years old, and prior to that time, we would travel, but like, we would go to, uh, visit some friends of theirs in New York, well, as a matter of fact, um, Genevieve Williams’ sister, uh, Edith Bernard,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm

GOODMAN: …that lives in New York, uh,

MARSHALL: [unintelligible]

GOODMAN: …my parents were, were close friends with her, um, and we used to go to New York, and she lived right downtown in New York…

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …practically. Um, but, uh, and, and this would have been in ’51, when I was eleven. That was the first time I went out west. Saw, y’know, all that stuff out there.

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: Was very impressed,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …y’know, with the West. But I’ve also had an opportunity to visit in a lot of foreign countries and as a result have taken my own kids to visit 00:37:00some of the foreign parts of the world, and we have, well, we’ve been out west, but we haven’t taken that driving tour, y’know, across country. I’ve been to Oklahoma, and um, Nevada, and California, and Washington and Oregon, and Utah, and most of the Southern states. And I really do believe that those kinds of experiences, uh, broaden one’s perspectives tremendously, your relationship to, y’know, the task they have to perform in the community. Kind of opens up your vision…

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …a little bit.

MARSHALL: As, uh, well, ’course, you had that, you had, you had connected 00:38:00with the Democratic Party when you were in school. What kindled your political interests after you got back, after you got out of serving?

GOODMAN: Well, when I came back to Ypsilanti, uh,

MARSHALL: That’s when John Burton was mayor.

GOODMAN: He was mayor, and I don’t remember exactly the sequence of events, but at that time I was at the house, uh, one night and he called up and asked me if I, uh, was interested in being appointed to the Human Relations Commission. And of course I said, yeah, I’d, I’d like that. And at that time, Mrs. Egland was also on the Commission, and several other people,[there was Mark Sanzie], y’know, others that I can’t recall all their names right offhand, 00:39:00but several people that I knew. And he basically said that, uh, y’know, he wanted me to get back involved. Now, see, prior to that time I also was appointed, um, well, 1960, as a citizen member of the Citizen’s Advisory Committee for the Urban Renewal Program in Ypsilanti. And that’s where I had my first contact with, well, not my first, but my first sort of political contact with Matti Dorsey. ’Cause she was anti-Urban Renewal right down the wire, and I guess my, I was a college student but I was also, y’know, a south-side resident and kind of a homegrown entity, so that uh, I brought a little balance I guess to the whole Committee, ’cause she had, they had her on 00:40:00the one side, fighting it, and me on the other side, well, I—I shouldn’t say that I was advocating for it, but I would try to bring some reason to some of the illogical arguments that she often came up with, y’know. But then when I went away to the service I was out of touch for four years, and then when I came back, John Burton found out that I was back in town, and he, y’know, contacted me again and said that he wanted me to get involved with this Human Relations Commission. So I served on the Human Relations Commission for two years, and then I was elected the chairman that last, well, the second year that I was on, and then, um, I had been asked by John Burton and several other people to consider running for Council in that ’69, uh, council race. But I that—my own personal interest has always been, y’know, revolving around uh, politics 00:41:00and the political world, and, uh, that particular sequence of events uh, provided me the opportunity then to get back into it. But now, had someone had asked me in ’69 if I would have expected or thought that within a matter of two years I would have been the mayor, I would have clearly said no because at that time, that wasn’t one of my—I, well, it, I can’t say it wasn’t an aspiration, but it wasn’t something that I saw that was coming on the horizon that quickly. Uh, ’cause when I got on Council, you see, I was in the clear minority, ’cause Norman Kennedy and I were serving on Council together, uh, and, uh, we just, we lost on just about everything ’cause the Republicans were solidly in charge. But I was a threat, I was a real threat to the, to the 00:42:00Republicans, uh, and particularly to the mayor at that time, who was Boatwright, because, uh, they tried to y’know, roll things past and didn’t really want to have a whole lot of discussion about things and although I would, I would realize that I was going to be on the losing end of votes, um, I’d raise questions in the meetings, and so they tried to placate my…

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: …my activity by giving me certain kinds of responsibilities. That’s how, the only reason I was elected mayor protem.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

GOODMAN: Uh, they figured, well, they’d better hand this dude something…

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: …’cause, shut him up, see?

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: When I got to be the mayor protem, I just continued just like I was all along. But then some of the others that were around the table started to take up more support on various things. And when Nat got appointed to the Council, uh, 00:43:00although she was a Republican, uh, we really ended up, uh, we, we had some battles on a couple things…

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …but basically we ended up uh, supporting one another’s positions on things, more than I got support from some of the others around the Council table. And, and, that’s pretty much the way it is today, uh, as far as the, y’know, City Council is concerned. I’m a Democrat and she’s a Republican but in terms of local Ypsilanti city issues, uh, you just can’t break them down into party distinctions

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …that, that clearly, ’cause they’re not a party issue, and it’s just a community issue.

MARSHALL: The, uh, ’course, you, you you have had since being on the Council you have had some, I mean, since the time you was elected to Council you’ve 00:44:00had some pretty good experiences, I’ll just call them good, you’ve had some challenging times, I know,

GOODMAN: Right.

MARSHALL: …and, uh, you’ve had some, some times that have been rather, uh, well, I, I don’t like to call them threatening, but, uh, there’ve been experiences that you would have rather not had.

GOODMAN: (laughs)

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: Yeah.

MARSHALL: I was just wondering, since you’ve been on the Council, what s—strikes you as perhaps the most pleasant, uh, kind of thing that has happened to you?

GOODMAN: Well, as it relates directly to Ypsilanti, uh, I would say that the most pleasant thing that happened to me initially was when my own Council 00:45:00colleagues elected me mayor in 1972. And that was before the charter changed. And, y’know, it was clearly obvious that as a result of that particular election in ’72, that had it not been for a couple of newcomers on the Council who had already committed to themselves but neither of them had said it to me, that they really felt that I was the best qualified to get the job. Uh, and they really broke through, I think, some significant, uh, odds that they had to deal with in the community ’cause, y’know,

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

GOODMAN: I was still a black man.

MARSHALL: Yeah, still black, and that was—at that particular time in Ypsi history.

GOODMAN: At that time in history, uh, things just hadn’t opened up as greatly where you could expect that sort of thing to, y’know, occur.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: And so, when that happened, of course, uh, that was clearly one of the highlights, I guess then of course I came back and ran on my own accord at large that following year, y’know, when the charter changed.

MARSHALL: Ah-hah.

GOODMAN: But now in terms of things that have happened to me that have been particularly pleasant, uh, since that time, I mean there’s just, there’s been uh, y’know, there’s just, there’s been a lot of things that clearly, I view as, as pleasant, good, make me feel good, versus, y’know, the, the, the problems. I—When we had the, uh, decision made to build the first senior citizens’ high rise,

MARSHALL: Oh yeah, uh-huh.

GOODMAN: I, I had spent an awful long time trying to get that thing off the ground in Ypsilanti, and, when I stood up down there and gave a few words, uh, at the groundbreaking where we were digging dirt,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …to get that thing started, uh, I felt very good about that. Uh, I felt good about the swimming pool project, uh, I felt good when we were able to finally get that vote to, to move City Hall from the old building down to where we are now. Uh, so there’s really been, y’know, kind of several things that, that I would have to identify as, as having been, y’know, very pleasant experiences. Now, there are, there are little things that happen that mean a lot more to me than some of the big things by way of, y’know, the usual awards or recognitions that you get, uh, and little things for example are when—someone calls me, and I, I try to do, do them a favor or respond to their request, and then somehow or other they, they communicate directly back to me or they send me 00:48:00a note, uh, thanking me for having helped them,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: ’cause very rarely do you get that.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: When it happens, obviously, then you, you, you just feel very very good about that person because you realize how infrequent it is that an individual is ever appreciative of things that, uh, happen to ’em.

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: But the experience of being in the mayor’s chair, and having the experience of meeting people, and, y’know, certainly, dealing with officials that, uh, in Washington, uh, in my experiences and opportunities that I had, uh, through the Michigan Municipal League were certainly all highlights, uh, in terms of my years that I’ve been in office. I gue—it would probably be very 00:49:00difficult for me to single out one, one event—

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: One series of things…

MARSHALL: Mmm.

GOODMAN: …that I would say, um, I felt, y’know, better about than, than others.

MARSHALL: I, uh, recall one incident—you were out of town…I was trying to remember who the mayor protem was. But I recall that in the discussion that was taking place, I don’t remember the issue, but you not being there, and the 00:50:00other pers-oh, that was the guy that finally, uh, was defeated and wouldn’t run again. Uh, who was…

GOODMAN: Uh,

MARSHALL: Guy was—

GOODMAN: On, he was on Council? and—

MARSHALL: Y—yeah, and he ran against you one time.

GOODMAN: Oh, um…Hooker.

MARSHALL: Hooker.

GOODMAN: Yeah. He ran for Mayor against me,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Before that, I remember, wasn’t he mayor, wasn’t he mayor protem?

GOODMAN: Right. Yeah.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: Yeah.

MARSHALL: And I remember, whatever it was that came up, he could not handle the meeting,

GOODMAN: (chuckles) Yeah.

MARSHALL: And when you, everybody was just saying they’d be so glad when you came back, that you could handle the meeting. And ’course, sure enough, as did happen, just like that, and of course I think that was—we always thought that that was perhaps one of the main reasons he had such a poor showing in the election. Because even though—I doubt very much if it, if it were planned that way.

GOODMAN: Yeah.

MARSHALL: But while you were away, that was an opportunity for him to be shown 00:51:00up, as unequal to the job. And, it, by the same score, when you came back he was just able to. I always thought, to me, that was a, that was a, that’s a high point, and my recollection of a political event which involved you. (laughs)

GOODMAN: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: Just that ability to come back and somehow work that thing out and to keep those people away from each other’s throats, and they always, they always doing that anyway.

GOODMAN: Well, I do recall, um, there was two, three times when I had to be away, I was, I was out of town…

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: Uh, and that was of course a very difficult period in the community because that that’s when we had that three-party Council.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: With those HRPs, and Democrats, and Republicans.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: And I remember that they had a big meeting down there one night where, the HRP wanted to, uh, show a moving picture about, about something, marijuana 00:52:00or whatever the issue was, and he, uh, slammed the gavel down on the glass and broke the glass, and said no, they wasn’t gonna show no pictures down here tonight and this meeting was adjourned, and I guess all bedlam broke out in the Council Chambers, and folks was running and jumping, and… I remember Paul Clay was, uh, telling me later that he was getting ready to go out there and grab one of those little hippies and throw him out of the Council chamber.

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: Uh, but those, but those were clearly times when you definitely needed to have a, a good head on your shoulder and, and you could maintain your composure, because, uh,

MARSHALL: Right.

GOODMAN: Because everybody else was losing their head and if you lost yours as the leader,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: Uh, there was no control. And that’s precisely what happened that particular evening I guess, and things just, y’know, came to a screeching halt. And of course, uh, the next morning at 6:30 in the hotel room, I get a 00:53:00call, and Hooker’s on the phone telling me all about what happened and, so forth and so on.

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: And the incident that I can remember also was the time that the Council was getting organized. I was in Washington, State Department, for a State Department briefing that I had been invited to. And, they were trying to elect the mayor protem and they sat down there until noo—midnight casting ballots to determine who the mayor protem was gonna be,

MARSHALL: Mmm.

GOODMAN: …and they came to a deadlock and they ended up with a 5-5 tie. And no one except my wife and Dale Hooker knew exactly when I was due to come back to Ypsilanti. But see, I was due to come back that next evening.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: And, they adjourned that Council meeting on a Monday night and Tuesday night they had agreed to reassemble at 7 o’clock and start the balloting all over again. And my plane landed in Detroit at 7:05. And my wife met me at the airport and I walked out to the car and she said “get in the car, ’cause you gotta get to Ypsi ’cause you got to go down there and run this Council meeting.”

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: And I—I said, “What do you mean, run the Council meeting?” and she says, “Well, they didn’t elect a mayor protem last night.” So, I said, all right, so I, and she brought the Ypsi paper out to the airport so I could read everything that everybody said the night before.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: And about quarter to eight, we, uh, pulled up, in front of City Hall, and I just told her to keep the car, and I’d get a ride home with somebody, 00:55:00and, um, I walked up the steps, and it was relatively quiet in the room, because they were in the middle of casting ballots, and they had been through about ten ballots by that time, or ten votes rather, and they still ended up with 5-5 tie. And Jim Ashby was the City Clerk, and he was of course sitting in the Mayor’s chair, ’cause they didn’t have anybody that could, could act as the mayor, ’cause they hadn’t elected a mayor protem yet. When I opened the door and walked in the room, and when everybody saw me walk in that room, it was just like, y’know, the weight had been lifted from everybody’s shoulders.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah.

GOODMAN: Because they knew that when I got there, I’d just sit down and resume. And so I sat down at the table and I asked Jim Ashby where we were and he said, well, we’re on about the tenth or eleventh, uh, vote for this mayor 00:56:00protem thing. I said, all right, so then I said, the floor’s open for nominations for mayor protem. Well, the battle came down between Hooker and Waldemyer.

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah.

GOODMAN: And Waldemyer had managed to talk some of the young HRP into voting for him, and Hooker had talked the Democrats into voting for him, so they had split the Democrats up and the HRP up so that, uh, effectively Hooker had the, y’know, five votes, and Waldemyer had five votes.

MARSHALL: (laughs)

GOODMAN: So mine was the—

MARSHALL: Tie-breaker.

GOODMAN: Tie-breaker.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: Well, of course, I had walked—I had worked with Waldemyer already and I just didn’t believe that he was the caliber to handle that kind of job, plus some other things that I had general concerns about with him. And I had at least 00:57:00been more successful in working with Hooker because he had supported some of the things that I wanted to do while I was in the mayor’s chair, so uh, we got the nominations on the floor, and we had the vote, and it was over. Six to five vote, Hooker was the mayor protem. I said, “swear him in and the meeting’s adjourned.” And all that happened in a matter of five minutes after I walked into the room.

MARSHALL: I, I remember that. But we were just so proud of the fact that you, had, y’know, you could handle it like that.

GOODMAN: And I guess what I recall things that happen, it just points out how the person that’s involved in certain situations don’t, they don’t put a heavy emphasis or they don’t have a particular recognition of that event as, y’know, having any more significance than a whole lot of other kinds of events 00:58:00that have occurred, ’cause I guess I would have probably never made a, uh, I wouldn’t have even recalled that particular incident as a part of something that was particularly significant to me, uh, as I look at my experience over these past ten years. But I do recognize and I do appreciate that there are others who watch these little things that occur and manage to put them in context as it relates to, y’know, the overall, uh, picture down there.

MARSHALL: Uh-huh. Well, y’know, yeah, I remember that, and I guess the other thing I wondered is, um, how have your so-called, I would call, public works brought you satisfaction? When I say public works, I’m talking about things 00:59:00like the bridge, the, uh, highway, uh…

GOODMAN: Oh, yeah.

MARSHALL: Intersections.

GOODMAN: Right.

MARSHALL: You had to deal with those, I know, several times,

GOODMAN: Mm-hmm.

MARSHALL: How does your satisfaction with those, uh, stack up?

GOODMAN: Well, I, I’m of course very pleased with um, some of those public, uh, works projects that we were able to get, uh, accomplished, uh, y’know, we’ve been working very long now to get those bridges in, we finally managed to do that. And, uh, that, particularly that bridge down there by the Ford Motor Company,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: That’s been a long, long time,

MARSHALL: Sure, that’s right. Long time [around]…

GOODMAN: It’s just, it’s incredible the amount of work that you have to do to work with these different, uh, elected officials, these different bureaucrats,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …in Washington and uh, state level and so forth, to get those things 01:00:00off the ground. And, very definitely, I, uh, I’m very happy about uh, those things, uh, getting the, uh, street widened, getting the promenade in, getting the Depot Town thing in, the Farmer’s Market. Those are all things that, uh, to me at least are going to help our community, y’know, continue to, to prosper or at least set the stage for expanded, uh, opportunities for business development in the next 10 years. So I would certainly, uh, rank some of those sorts of things on a, a list of accomplishments I guess I would say, since, uh, they occurred under the, during the time and under the leadership that I’ve been trying to bring to the community.

MARSHALL: Well, I uh, let’s see, what was the other, I had another question I 01:01:00was going to ask you, uh, [though] what are your, uh, what are, have you decided what you want to do once you’re out of that thing?

GOODMAN: Future ambitions?

MARSHALL: Yep. Future, future plans, future ambitions, I know you ran for state senate, once,

GOODMAN: Right.

MARSHALL: …very strongly losing [project] unfortunate, to, unfortunate opposition at that particular time.

GOODMAN: Yeah. Well, I, uh, I haven’t really made any particular decision 01:02:00about what I’m going to do in the future. I, I enjoy the political world,

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

GOODMAN: I certainly would probably consider running for another public office at some time, uh, if the right combinations of opportunities came along.

MARSHALL: Mm-hmm.

GOODMAN: Uh, I frankly am at a point where I am getting um, a little tired of dealing with this mayor’s role. Um, I’m kind of, y’know, betwixt and between about it, because on the one hand, I’d, I’d just sort of like to be able to bow out and let somebody else get involved, and maybe spend a little time just having my job at the University and just kind of doing some other things. But then when I look at the folks coming along and people that I see out 01:03:00in the community and the kind of discussions that I have with people who keep urging me to stay in there and do this and do that and do the other thing, uh, it just raises enough ambivalence about the issue as to whether I should or shouldn’t stop right now.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: If I had confidence at this moment that I could foresee on the horizon an individual who I had a lot of, y’know, respect for that would have a reasonable chance of winning in the election,

MARSHALL: Uh-huh.

GOODMAN: …uh, that I think would be certainly good for the community, uh, I really would mind, I would not at all mind bowing out, and, just spending a little time looking to see, uh, what other political opportunities might open 01:04:00up, uh, and in some situations, uh, you can be more effective, uh, depending on—

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …how you function, when you’re not sitting right there at the head of the table all the time, y’know. But I haven’t made any firm decision yet as to whether I’m gonna seek reelection again, I got another year,

MARSHALL: Yeah.

GOODMAN: …so…[END OF TAPE]

MARSHALL: What does Judy think about what you do?

GOODMAN: She has always been very supportive of whatever I decide to do. We really don’t talk in terms of what I might do versus what she might have an interest in. I’m sure that if an opportunity came that I felt would be good for us, she would be supportive. We got out of the service when we did because neither of us enjoyed it. She really didn’t enjoy the military wife’s role of going to all kinds of teas and chitchatting. As a matter of fact, she’s often been the one who has given me incentive to stay in there and keep going. There’s been a lot of times when I was ready to turn in my resignation because I get so tired of fighting people all the time.. I’ve come home some nights when I was just fuming, and she can sense when I’ve gone through something that I wasn’t happy about. I’m not an outward person, so I don’t talk about that kind of stuff. I wouldn’t blow up at somebody at a meeting; you’d have to push me pretty far to get me excited enough to blow up spontaneously. There are time when I come home and talk about a certain situation and she reminds me and I remind myself that you just can’t afford to blow up. If you do it, you’re feeding right into what someone else wants you to after all. If there was a reasonable chance that they thought that someone could be put up to beat me, that person would have been put up a long time ago. They did do a good job of getting them out when Hooker ran.

MARSHALL: I think that he ruined his chances when he was mayor protem and people found out that he couldn’t handle it.