Mashatt Family Interview, date unknown

T. INGRAM: …a grant that was funded by the National Endowment for the Humanities to do an oral history on the contributions on the part of black citi—citizens in the development of Ypsilanti. Today we’re in the process of, of interviewing the Mashatt

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

T. INGRAM: family.

KEN MASHATT: Right.

T. INGRAM: And what is your name?

KEN MASHATT: Uh, Ken Mashatt.

T. INGRAM: Ken Mashatt? And your name?

HELEN PALMER: Helen.

T. INGRAM: Helen?

HELEN PALMER: Mashatt.

T. INGRAM: Mashatt.

HELEN PALMER: Palmer.

T. INGRAM: Palmer. Okay, where were you born?

KEN MASHATT: I was born in Ann Arbor, uh, Michigan. Um, in September of ’39.

T. INGRAM: And your parents’ names?

KEN MASHATT: My parents are Kenneth Albert Mashatt and Helen Cole Mashatt. They came to Ypsilanti and built a home, uh, a home, uh, back in the early thirties. In fact, the house I’m living in, uh, my father built it.

HELEN PALMER: And his brothers.

KEN MASHATT: And, uh, and his brothers. And, uh, back then, uh, in Ypsilanti, back then, you know, they had moved uh, blacks out of Depot Town, because of the railroad tracks there, and they told us put themselves on the hill there, and they used to call it Hungry Hill. And in fact when my father was going to get a permit to build the house, he took the, uh, blueprints down to City Hall, and they told him they didn’t care what blacks put on the hill. Build the chimney out the window if you wanted to. And, uh, this is, uh, similar attitude to back then, that was.

T. INGRAM: Could you tell me something about your, uh, family history and when, when did your father, or his father’s father, first come to Ypsilanti, and bring us on up to the present, in terms of a historical type sequence.

KEN MASHATT: Uh, well, it goes back. Now, I, you know, blacks, they don’t 00:02:00have any written history, mostly, it’s mostly by word of mouth.

T. INGRAM: Oral tradition.

KEN MASHATT: So, uh, I went and got, uh, birth certificates and death certificates of my father, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, which I could only get a, a death certificate for my great-grandfather, because he wasn’t born here. He came from Missouri. Now that was my, my father’s father’s father.

T. INGRAM: What was his name?

KEN MASHATT: Uh, that’s just it, now. I can’t remember his name, my, my grandfather’s name was Horace. Horace Mashatt. And he spelled it M-A-S-H-A-T-T. Now, his, his father came from, uh, Missouri. My grandfather’s father.

T. INGRAM: Right.

KEN MASHATT: Now, in fact, from uh, Springfield, Missouri. Uh, he, he came, his 00:03:00father’s father’s father came from Louisiana, now this is where the Mashatt, a lot of people say the Mashatt French-Canadian, but the French comes in from Louisiana. Uh, it goes back to Louisiana, and, uh, some of my, my aunts told me and, and, different one, they said the Mashatts were never slaves. They were, they come here when Louisiana was French. Come but, when, uh, when my grandfather got in, uh, Missouri, uh, not my grandfather, my great-, great-, great-grandfather, when the Civil War broke out, he was considered slave, so he ran all the way to Canada. Now, he went to Canada and went up in New York, and married a white woman.

T. INGRAM: What year do you, do you, do you think?

KEN MASHATT: Oh, this was in the 1700s.

T. INGRAM: 1700s?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah, this, this had to be in the 1700s.

HELEN PALMER: Or the 1600s, great-great-grandfather.

KEN MASHATT: Because it had to be early in the 1700s, because, uh, you know, back then, I, when I asked about my grand-, my great-, great-grandmother was a, a white woman from New York. And, uh, I said, that only her first name, Charlotte, was on the, uh, certificate, and I asked the lady at the, uh, Ann Arbor, I said, “How come you don’t have my great- great- grandmother’s last name on there?” Say, well, back then, if a, a, if a black married a white, whites would disown ’em, and so they would only put the first name, so you can’t trace the, her family back.

T. INGRAM: Yeah.

KEN MASHATT: And I said, well, so that’s how they knew that she was white, 00:05:00because there was no last name given, you know, on the, on the certificate. Now this is, this is what she told to me there at the register’s office in Ann Arbor, when I went to get these certificates.

T. INGRAM: So they, they resided in Ann Arbor, then, eh, eventually?

KEN MASHATT: No, they, they resided here in Ypsi.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: Okay, now, my, my great-grandfather was a well-digger, here in Ypsi.

T. INGRAM: What was his name?

KEN MASHATT: Uh, I don’t know my great-grandfather’s name. Um, I could get it for you, because it’s up, on record up here in Ann Arbor.

T. INGRAM: About what t—by, by what, about what time period did they arrive in Ypsilanti?

KEN MASHATT: Well, let me say this, uh, my father let’s see, my father was born in 1894, and he was the oldest son of Horace Mashatt, which is my 00:06:00grandfather. Now, it—he was bor—my father was born in Ypsilanti and his father was born in Ypsilanti. And I imagine there would be approximately 30 years’ difference in ages, so he probably, uh, come around mid-1800s.

T. INGRAM: What kind of job, what, what was the occupation?

KEN MASHATT: Uh, well, my grandfather now, my grandfather he was a laborer at Ford Motor Company

T. INGRAM: Oh, okay.

KEN MASHATT: he worked for Ford for 50 years, believe it or not

T. INGRAM: What year was this, around that, around what time?

KEN MASHATT: Oh, this was, this was around uh, the late eighteen, uh, I’ll take that back, nineteen, that’s I imagine around nineteen twelve,

T. INGRAM: Right.

KEN MASHATT: around nineteen fifteen. Yeah. Uh, he worked for Ford for many, 00:07:00many years. And my dad worked for Ford.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: Uh, then, uh, my father, he built the house, and fell off the house, and he, uh, went to the hospital and died of heart trouble because of too much ether there at the hospital. I still believe they killed him, but you know, I can’t say anything about that. Uh,

HELEN PALMER: Get back to your grandfather and his will and the fact that he owned all the land over there by Eastern.

KEN MASHATT: Oh. Yeah, okay, uh, now, grandpa, uh, I mean his daddy was a well-digger and they had a lot of land, and from what I’m told it was from the water tower uh, back toward, uh, Carpenter Road they were, they owned a whole 00:08:00lot of land, uh,

HELEN PALMER: Up there at Washtenaw.

KEN MASHATT: uh, yeah, right, it started, started right there at Washtenaw, on Washtenaw, water tower, Eastern, uh, probably Eastern Michigan is sitting on Mashatt land that they used to own, back over there.

T. INGRAM: Did they sell that land to, to, uh,

KEN MASHATT: I don’t know, I don’t know, uh, how they, uh, disposed of the land, you know, I don’t know, but it’s on the tax ledgers for years back that they owned it, uh, I don’t know. My aunt says that, uh, he hocked the land for fifty dollars to have a good time [laughs]

T. INGRAM: Mrs. Palmer, would you like to add anything to that discussion of the grandfather, and the father’s background, coming to Ypsilanti?

HELEN PALMER: No, we, Jimmy and I done more talking than anyone else, about the land, and about different things that have happened uh, that he knows, and has traced back and what little I know, but I’m the old one,

T. INGRAM: Okay.

HELEN PALMER: next to the oldest out of nine,

T. INGRAM: Okay.

HELEN PALMER: and there’s nine of us, was nine of us.

T. INGRAM: So there’s nine brothers and sisters, in, in, in town, right?

HELEN PALMER: Uh-huh.

KEN MASHATT: Well, eight right now, we lost our sister some years back.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: Now, if you want to know, like, I think, uh, I think this needs to go down in history, as far as Ypsilanti, uh, back in 1971, the uh, first black American, uh, first black Afro-American festival was given in Ypsilanti which I 00:10:00was the founder of.

T. INGRAM: What I would like to do uh, is, could you provide for me in discussion, uh, your, uh, view of Ypsilanti as a child, what was black life like as a child in Ypsilanti, growing up?

KEN MASHATT: Okay.

T. INGRAM: Then I’d like to get your perspective too, Mrs. Palmer. Okay? so, state your name again, and, and,

KEN MASHATT: All right. Uh, I’m Ken Mashatt, and life for me as a child in Ypsilanti was, uh, in my early life was I think my most favorite life because Harriet Street School uh, was where I attended, and, uh, Mr. Beatty was the principal there. And we had a very, uh, uh, good atmosphere of learning at the same time uh, Ypsilanti as a whole was more racist and prejudiced. Now, I didn’t understand it as a child, but we lived on dusty roads, we, I was in 00:11:00Ypsi before they got pavement and streetlights, and horses and chickens and cows and pigs used to run up and down the street, uh, it was a regular country life.

T. INGRAM: What kinds of black leaders were there then, back during that time?

KEN MASHATT: [Laughs]

HELEN PALMER: Don’t tell him, don’t tell him.

KEN MASHATT: I’m not. Um, the black leadership at that time, now, I, I, like I said, I’m, I’m speaking of when I was eight and five and six

T. INGRAM: I’m talking about life as

KEN MASHATT: Okay, as I graduated up

T. INGRAM: right up

KEN MASHATT: Okay, as I come up, I, uh, I, I, found uh, racism in the school system because I was told, I was told, uh, right there in Ypsilanti High School that I could not be an architect, because there was no black architects in this country. And this is when I was coming up. Uh, so there was certain things that 00:12:00they advised black youth certain subjects that the fields weren’t open to ’em, opportunities to go into that field at that time wasn’t open to them. Uh, the black leadership then was in my estimation somewhat poor, however, now let me, let me straighten that out, however, we, the, the type of, of, black in Ypsilanti was, the get along, don’t rock the boat type.

T. INGRAM: Name, name some names, of ministers, preachers, uh,

KEN MASHATT: I can name a few names, uh, uh, Dr. Amos Washington, uh, Dr. Perry, Dr. Perry was the first black to ever serve as a Board of Education member. Uh, Amos Washington, uh, served as first black Housing Commissioner. Uh, 00:13:00we’ve had black leaders throughout uh, Ypsilanti’s the first to have a black mayor, John Burton, uh, the, the leadership, uh, then, as, as I was coming up, was, like I said, get along. Now, we had some profound leaders, we had another man that used to live there in Ypsi who started the uh, black, uh, communist chapter, uh, Herbert Walker. ’Course, they called him a Communist; I don’t know. Uh, but Ypsilanti is, is—did you know that Ypsilanti is the last point going north on the Underground Railroad?

T. INGRAM: Tell me a little more about the Walker,

KEN MASHATT: Herb Walker?

T. INGRAM: Yeah, in terms of your, your, your feeling that he was a very 00:14:00dynamic leader.

KEN MASHATT: Well, I feel that he was a, a dynamic leader, I, I don’t think that the, the blacks in Ypsilanti were ready for his type of leadership, even back then.

HELEN PALMER: [Does he live] here now?

T. INGRAM: Tell me something about him. Wh—where did he come from, wh—

KEN MASHATT: Uh, well, he was, he, they came from Illinois, his family came from Illinois, the Church of God uh, that you see on Jefferson started in his mother’s living room. Uh, they’re quite religious, his father was a Baptist minister,

T. INGRAM: Do you remember his mother’s name?

KEN MASHATT: Uh,

HELEN PALMER: Grandma? I don’t know! Just Grandma Walker, ’cause everybody called her Grandma Walker.

KEN MASHATT: Well, his, his daughter lives in Ypsi.

HELEN PALMER: Yeah, right across the street from

T. INGRAM: What’s his daughter’s name?

KEN MASHATT: Ruth,

HELEN PALMER: Ruth

KEN MASHATT: Ruth, uh,

HELEN PALMER: Simpson.

KEN MASHATT: Ruth Simpson.

T. INGRAM: Ruth Simpson?

KEN MASHATT: Ruth Walker Simpson.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: Uh, but Herb lives in, in New York now, and he’s, uh, he’s an 00:15:00engineer, on, on a, well, I don’t know if you want to call it engineer, on the ocean liners, he’s, he’s a seaman. And he lives, he lives in, um, he stays in New York when the ship is here but he lives in the islands, he lives down in the islands now. But he, I think was a, to me, a dynamic leader, I don’t think that black leadership was uh, uh, uh, ready for him at that time, but, uh, he wanted to organize blacks even way back then. But, getting back to my day, you know, it was a shame that we had people in a leadership position, and I do remember that, that, a lot of times, we wouldn’t have swings and teeter-totters because the, uh, principal uh, would, uh, turn the money back in to show how good a manager he was, you know, we had to do without. Now, I’m 00:16:00not telling you hearsay, I’m telling you from what I experienced.

T. INGRAM: Yeah, okay.

KEN MASHATT: Okay?

T. INGRAM: Um, what would you—would you say or would you agree that in Ypsilanti, in comparison with other places in this area was more liberal in its feeling and treatment towards blacks, or, or more conservative, [ ] compare

KEN MASHATT: I, I, I think, no, I think that uh, it-it’s not more liberal, I think it’s, uh, more, more, now how do you say, uh, covered up, not so extrovert as, uh, introvert. You know, they had a way of covering—ah, and then, too, I think it-it’s the way uh, you carry yourself. I guess I was born with a lot of pride but I, I remember uh, one time, uh, my mother, after my father died, policeman came to the house, you know, my mother she would open the door and feed anybody and let anybody stay there, ’cause, if they was 00:17:00homeless, or in need,

T. INGRAM: What was your mother’s name?

KEN MASHATT: My mother’s name was Helen, uh, Cole Mashatt. [Her lady is] she become a widow when she married [Richard Lever] who is my stepfather. Uh, but I remember this young man was down and out, and she let him come there and stay, and he was a criminal, course she didn’t know that, didn’t nobody else know that, and the law came in looking, and, uh, policeman stepped in the house, state policeman, too, and she said, “Will you remove your hat in my house?” He said, “Well, I don’t have to remove my hat, this is part of my uniform.” And I remember that lady taking that broomstick and knocking his hat clean across the living room, and she said, “As long as you live you take your hat off in my house, or you talk to me on my porch.” And uh, we, we never got messed with, when I say messed with, the worst thing I remember and experienced in my life was when I first found out I was black,

T. INGRAM: And when did you find that out and what impact did it have on you?

KEN MASHATT: Well, I was 19 years old, had just joined the United States Army, and uh, uh, joined the draft, now they was drafting then, so they drafted us, me and my neighbor went. Well, I come home on leave, on my way back I stopped in uh, Memphis, Tennessee, 2 o’clock in the morning, okay, nothing was open but a white grill and I was hungry, I was sure enough hungry, and so I

HELEN PALMER: [ ] eat your toes, [ ] hungry

KEN MASHATT: I went to this grill and I said, “Listen, lady,” big old uh, redhead lady, white lady, I went in, I said, “Can I get a sandwich?” She said, “No, you can’t get a sandwich,” she said, “Get your black ass out 00:19:00of here.” I said, “What’s so wrong?” She said, “Well, we don’t serve niggers here.” Well, that didn’t bother me too much, I said, “Well, look, all I want is something to eat. If you give me a sandwich, I’ll leave.” So she called the manager. He come out there and he said, “We don’t serve blacks here, you got to go.” And I said, “well, I’m in a United States army uniform.” He said, “We going to give you a sandwich, but you have to go outdoors to eat it.” I’d never been treated like that before.

T. INGRAM: So life for you in Ypsilanti was, uh, was like, uh, you really wasn’t aware of, uh, of the color?

KEN MASHATT: Right. There, there, there was no color awareness, there, not at that time. Uh, you, you, at the same time, you knew, uh, you knew you were 00:20:00different, but you don’t know that you were more or less oppressed, until, uh, like I said, when, when things began to happen, then you realize it, you know. But, you see, this is one thing that, that blacks in Ypsilanti and I don’t understand all of it, we have a, a, a, a, when I say we ’cause I include myself, we have a, a poor conception on what we should accept, y’know, when I say what, when I say what we should accept, what we should accept from society as being, hey, this is just a part of life and this is the way it is, it’s 00:21:00this man’s world and we just live in it,

T. INGRAM: So you really had no, no, uh, racial conception, uh, race conception, of, of you being black, versus, you just being treated a certain way because you were colored

KEN MASHATT: Right. You see.

T. INGRAM: Okay. Uh, while growing up, what were some of the what were some of the various kinds of black businesses that you remember?

KEN MASHATT: Oh, I always said that Ypsilanti is going out of the world ass-backwards, it’s on tape now, so, because when I was coming up, we had our own drugstore, we had a soda bar, we had a restaurant, we had two restaurants, right there on Harriet Street, Amos Washington had a grocery store, we had a barb—we had barber shops, we had a fish market, we had a pool room, right there, right there on Harriet Street.

T. INGRAM: What were some of the names of the various owners of these businesses? Could you mention some of their names? Like Amos Washington

KEN MASHATT: Well, Amos, uh,

HELEN PALMER: Washington.

KEN MASHATT: Dickie, uh, uh, I don’t know, what’s Dickie’s last name?

HELEN PALMER: Atkins.

KEN MASHATT: Atkins. uh, a pool room

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: And then there was the Bennetts

HELEN PALMER: People don’t know of the Bennetts

KEN MASHATT: [Lorris] Bennett owned the, the pool room

HELEN PALMER: and they had grocery stuff.

KEN MASHATT: there on Monroe and um, and uh, Hamilton, uh, there was a,

HELEN PALMER: There was a restaurant, uh,

KEN MASHATT: Can’t think of who.

HELEN PALMER: Miss Bennett owned the restaurant on Harriet

KEN MASHATT: But I remember when Morgan built the place down there, Lanore Morgan, uh,

HELEN PALMER: Yeah.

KEN MASHATT: And Glover’s fish market, Glover had a fish market down there

T. INGRAM: What was Glover’s last name?

KEN MASHATT: Harvard Glover.

T. INGRAM: What was he?

KEN MASHATT: He’s a, he’s a minister, there in Ypsi.

T. INGRAM: Now?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah, now. He’s a minister.

T. INGRAM: What’s the name of his church?

KEN MASHATT: He, he doesn’t have a church.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: He’s an associate minister, had a congregation. Uh, there was a, Hall’s Barber shop was there,

HELEN PALMER: Hall’s, Goodman had a, had a,

KEM MASHATT: Goodman had a clothing store, Ms. Goodman, you know, the mayor’s, don’t, the mayor’s mother, she had a clothing store there, and then there was a, a, a, Moore, a George Moore, his, uh,

T. INGRAM: Who was he?

KEN MASHATT: C-Cartwright, had a restaurant, Reverend Cartwright, he had a restaurant

HELEN PALMER: But the Fullers had a place when I was a girl.

KEN MASHATT: And the Fullers had a restaurant there up under the—

T. INGRAM: Fullers, what were their first names?

KEN MASHATT: I don’t know.

HELEN PALMER: James, was the only one I can remember.

T. INGRAM: James Fuller?

HELEN PALMER: Uh-huh.

KEN MASHATT: James Fuller?

HELEN PALMER: Well, he had a sister named Beauty, another one named…

KEN MASHATT: But there was a whole lot of businesses

HELEN PALMER: There used to be a little restaurant, close to—

T. INGRAM: What do, what do you see as some of the reasons for many of these businesses either folding or closing down?

HELEN PALMER: Well, most of them died.

KEN MASHATT: Well, a lot of, a lot of them died, but a lot of them had, there was no one to take up, take up the action, take up the slack,

T. INGRAM: Take them over, yeah.

KEN MASHATT: and, and then, too, you know, uh, there’s, there’s just, there’s not that get up and drive in Ypsilanti. Uh, blacks, I always say, blacks are most passive, blacks in Ypsilanti, they’re, they’re more passive than anybody I know, you’ve got to kill somebody to get a riot started, somebody has to die, or somebody has to burn down something before you can get the attention of the masses, blacks, to see what is going on, and that’s a very poor way, you know, uh, this is exactly why what happened to the, uh, youth 00:25:00on the move, and uh the, the Black Cultural Festival, now they, they have a Heritage Festival now, and claiming it’s the first, it’s not the first, first festival was given right there in our Parkridge Park

T. INGRAM: What year?

KEN MASHATT: ’71.

T. INGRAM: 1971. In the area of politics, were there many blacks in the area of politics here? and [youth] were growing up?

KEN MASHATT: Well, you had, yes, uh, uh, Herb Francois was a politician, ah, ah, not, well, he’s a realtor more than a politician, uh, but he dealt in politics, uh, John Burton, you know, uh, Mrs. Dorsey, and she stands out in politics, she’s a real politician more or less, and there’s a lady that has more education in one finger than the whole city council got in the last ten years. Um,

HELEN PALMER: You ought to talk to her. Mrs. Dorsey.

T. INGRAM: Mm.

KEN MASHATT: Um, but um,

HELEN PALMER: She’s an [ ] original.

T. INGRAM: What kind of influence did they have in decision-making in politics, was it minimal or was it substantial?

KEN MASHATT: Very—I, I, I think it was, I think it was minimal, the reason why it was minimal because they didn’t take it to the street, and this is my argument, this, this has been my argument in Ypsilanti, taking it to the people, I remember when we got paved streets, sidewalks and streetlights, there Mrs. Dorsey, and uh, John Burton, Amos Washington and my mother, all of them had went and petitioned, they had to petition the people in the area to have the city that put streetlights and sidewalks. Now them four people who were uh, major leaders as far as getting pavement and streetlights on the South Side of Ypsi, man. All it was was trails. But, uh, what I’m saying is, the, the people that were in politics, they, there’s always been I guess in every black community, 00:27:00poor communication, and this is what has hurt the black politician in Ypsi, this is why, I, I think the, the people are so passive, because when you get somebody in a position, then you lose contact, and poor communicate, that’s like Doctor Clark, he was one of the most outstanding doctors in the area.

T. INGRAM: What was his first name?

HELEN PALMER: Leo Clark, [today]?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

HELEN PALMER: Leo Clark, doctor.

T. INGRAM: He was one of the first black doctors in Ypsilanti?

KEN MASHATT: Yes, he was, yes, he was, and one of the best. Not only a black doctor, he was one of the best doctors.

HELEN PALMER: Period.

KEN MASHATT: Uh, Dr. Bass was a good doctor, and is, uh, he, he worked on us on many a day,

T. INGRAM: I want to take you back a little bit, uh, could you share with 00:28:00me any, any discussions or impressions that your, your father, or your, your father’s grandfather may have told your father, or what your father may have told you, about how life was in Ypsilanti when you first came, you know, for black folk, you know, what was life like for them? You know, uh, yeah, did, did any of them ever, any of the old comments or anything, that filtered down, you know, in terms of what your father

HELEN PALMER: Well, back in them days, the black man stuck together a little, because different homes that were built in Ypsilanti, they build them, you know, they had a lot of, uh, masons, in Ypsilanti. Brick masons, and the masons was an organization, but them guys was together, you was going to build a house, they’d help.

KEN MASHATT: The masons would help, eh?

HELEN PALMER: Uh-huh. The people more or less uh, stuck together.

KEN MASHATT: Yeah, my dad was a,

HELEN PALMER: Mason.

KEN MASHATT: a, thirty-, thirty-three,

T. INGRAM: Thirty-third?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

HELEN PALMER: Yeah.

T. INGRAM: Thirty-third Mason, eh?

HELEN PALMER: [Right all the Western].

T. INGRAM: Well, the Masons tended to stick together and build homes here, you mean, for blacks? What would you say?

HELEN PALMER: Yeah…

KEN MASHATT: Well, not only Masons.

HALEN PALMER: Not Masons.

KEN MASHATT: I’ve never been a Mason, but I’ve built at least eleven homes, or helped build eleven, about eleven or twelve homes, right there on Jefferson.

T. INGRAM: Oh, okay.

KEN MASHATT: Because uh, we, uh, it used to be a time in, uh, in Ypsilanti where uh, when I was coming up now see my father died when I was three years old so I don’t know much about, you know, him, uh,

HELEN PALMER: But more or less if a man’s going to do something in Ypsilanti, the neighbors and everybody would pitch in and help, moreso than they do today.

KEN MASHATT: Oh, they don’t do that today. I’d come home from school and my mother would have a little something saying, “You go down and help Brother Lordis, and, uh, don’t you get in his way, if he wants you to carry lumber, you carry lumber, if he wants you to mix mortar, you mix mortar, you do whatever 00:30:00he tells you to do.”

HELEN PALMER: My uncle was a licensed carpenter way back then.

T. INGRAM: Who was?

HELEN PALMER: My uncle.

T. INGRAM: Was a carpenter?

HELEN PALMER: Mm-hmm.

T. INGRAM: Here in Ypsilanti?

HELEN PALMER: Mm-hmm.

T. INGRAM: What was his name?

HELEN PALMER: Kersey, Arden.

T. INGRAM: Arden Kersey.

HELEN PALMER: Mm-hmm.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

HELEN PALMER: He built a lot of houses over there. I don’t know too many that he built on, at this end. Well, most of the, when we moved, when we come out here, Ken?

KEN MASHATT: I know we came here right after I was, right before I was born,

HELEN PALMER: All right. That’s when we came here. We moved on Jefferson.

T. INGRAM: What year was that?

KEN MASHATT: That was around had to be around ’28 or ’30.

HELEN PALMER: Because there was one, two,

KEN MASHATT: See, I was born in ’39.

HELEN PALMER: on Jefferson, at that end of Jefferson,

KEN MASHATT: Must have been around ’35.

HELEN PALMER: there wasn’t but two black families, in that block, when we 00:31:00moved up there. Three. Old man Kersey.

KEN MASHATT: Well, he had a, mixed marriage.

HELEN PALMER: Yeah.

KEN MASHATT: There’s a lot of mixed marriages.

HELEN PALMER: There always has been in Ypsilanti.

T. INGRAM: Your uncle Kersey had a mixed marriage?

KEN MASHATT: No.

HELEN PALMER: No, he wasn’t. He wasn’t an uncle.

KEN MASHATT: We had two, let’s see, Chuck and uh, whatchacallit, what’s his name, there’s a mixed marriage down the street, too. I forget his name.

HELEN PALMER: Sayers?

KEN MASHATT: No, not Sayers.

HELEN PALMER: Oh, uh,

KEN MASHATT: Duckett.

HELEN PALMER: Duckett?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah, Mr. Duckett.

HELEN PALMER: The Thompsons were mixed.

T. INGRAM: What was the Ducketts’ first name?

KEN MASHATT: I, I can’t, I, I don’t know. But all, you know, back then, you know, you know, now, we go first name,

T. INGRAM: Yeah.

KEN MASHATT: back then you know, it was Mr. Mr. Kersey

HELEN PALMER: Everything.

KEN MASHATT: Mr. Duckett, Mr. Thompson.

HELEN PALMER: And if they was old enough, they were either Grandma, like,

KEN MASHATT: Right. Like Mother Walker.

HELEN PALMER: like, I never knew her first name. We, as a child, and I’m over 50, we always called her Grandma.

T. INGRAM: Grandma Walker, you mean?

KEN MASHATT: Mm-hmm.

HELEN PALMER: That’s Grandma Walker.

KEN MASHATT: Right.

HELEN PALMER: Yeah. There’s a lady in Ypsilanti now to my knowledge she’s still living, I don’t know if she’s [fair] senile, but the, her last name is Hardy. She married a, the Hardy [the belief]

KEN MASHATT: Right.

HELEN PALMER: They’ve been here a long time too, the Hardies. And, uh, Oh Lord, she must be a hundred years old.

KEN MASHATT: She is.

HELEN PALMER: She’s living.

KEN MASHATT: She’s a hundred, about

T. INGRAM: Is she black?

KEN MASHATT: Yes.

HELEN PALMER: Yes. She lives right there on Jefferson.

T. INGRAM: On Jefferson.

KEN MASHATT: She’s over a hundred.

HELEN PALMER: Yeah.

T. INGRAM: Mrs. Hardy.

HELEN PALMER: Mrs. Hardy.

KEN MASHATT: Right down the street from me.

HELEN PALMER: Right down Jefferson.

KEN MASHATT: Had been living there ever since.

HELEN PALMER: And my aunt’s living, and she’s about 90.

T. INGRAM: In Ypsilanti?

HELEN PALMER: Yeah.

T. INGRAM: What’s her first name?

HELEN PALMER: Edna.

T. INGRAM: Edna? Mashatt.

HELEN PALMER: Now she was born—no,

KEN MASHATT: No, Edna Kersey.

T. INGRAM: Edna Kersey.

HELEN PALMER: Right. Now that was my, see, that was my father’s

HELEN PALMER: Mother.

KEN MASHATT: Mother’s sister.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

HELEN PALMER: The Kerseys.

KEN MASHATT: The Kerseys…and related, there. Kerseys.

HELEN PALMER: Cause there’s two of them living. Edna and Dora are still living, in, in that particular family, ’cause all the rest of them have died. I remember my grandmother. But she was part Sioux and Blackfoot, and black. She was part Indian. She’s—

T. INGRAM: Now what, what was the year you say you think your, your family first came to Ypsilanti? Said the eighteen-something, or,

KEN MASHATT: I said, uh, early eighteens.

T. INGRAM: Early eighteen-hundreds.

KEN MASHATT: Early eighteen-hundreds. It might even go back to the last seventeenth, uh, it might go back to the last seventeen-hundreds, because like I said my grandfather lived to be ninety-seven,

HELEN PALMER: And he was born here, he’s been dead…

KEN MASHATT: He was born here.

HELEN PALMER: eleven or twelve years.

T. INGRAM: And you—

KEN MASHATT: So that would be a hundred years right there.

HELEN PALMER: Mm-hmm.

KEN MASHATT: See?

T. INGRAM: You have nine brothers and sisters.

KEN MASHATT: Yes.

T. INGRAM: Could you give me their names, of, of each one, just for the record? Brothers and sisters?

KEN MASHATT: Just for the record?

T. INGRAM: Yeah, yeah, all your names.

KEN MASHATT: There was, ah,

HELEN PALMER: Ah, Frank Mashatt. Then Helen J. Mashatt. Then Thomas Cole Mashatt, then Carolyn Ann Mashatt, and then Lilian Betty Mashatt, I’m going to put that Betty in, cause everybody call—we always called her Betty, when she died her name was Lilian, and half the people didn’t know who she was. ’Cause we always called her Betty. And then Shirley Mashatt Gray, now, and, what come after Shirley?

KEN MASHATT: Kenneth Albert Mashatt.

HELEN PALMER: Kenneth Albert Mashatt.

KEN MASHATT: Marvin Keith Mashatt.

HELEN PALMER: And then Sharon E

KEN MASHATT: And Sharon Mashatt.

HELEN PALMER: Mashatt. Newton.

KEN MASHATT: Newton.

T. INGRAM: Okay. Okay.

HELEN PALMER: Oh, I didn’t put my Palmer on my name, I’ve been a Palmer for thirty years.

T. INGRAM: If, if we were to look at the, uh, the present today, how do you view black life in Ypsilanti today, in terms of uh, race relations, in terms of education, in terms of the leadership. Do you see any significant advances on the part of black leadership in Ypsilanti today as compared to yesterday in the past? And if, and if so, and if not, why not? You know, share that with us.

KEN MASHATT: Well, that’s um, see, now that’s, see, I think that’s, that’s a touchy, because, uh, I, first of all, I, I used to get in, uh, I used to deal in politics a bit and I used to get in the city manag—I mean, uh, county, uh, I was a county youth director from uh, ’71 to ’74, and uh, I 00:36:00dealt in a lot of uh, educational problems, and a lot of uh, different kind of problems, and I’ve just refrained from uh, from dealing with those problems. I, I retired more or less and went into private life, I, I, I don’t want to deal with the, with the city. For one thing, I find that, uh, the leadership,

HELEN PALMER: No one stick together.

KEN MASHATT: It’s very, it’s, to me, the leadership in Ypsilanti is the most—very passive leadership, like I said, uh, we have a lot of people who are passive, who don’t believe in rocking the boat, uh, who don’t believe in uh, I guess I’ve been more or less a militant, among whatever you want to call us, but, this is the way I see it, uh, as far as changes, I think there’s a lot more opportunities for blacks, as far, and now, I’m not talking about 00:37:00city-wide, I’m talking about national-wide, okay, because city-wide I don’t think we have that many opportunities. Uh, you have factories, uh, I’m almost positive, you have factories in Ypsilanti that you still don’t have blacks in. They’re small shops. But you have quite a few small shops in Ypsilanti that are still lily-white. Uh, I, I, I, and that’s, you know, I think that, uh, if blacks are going to live and support the economic system in Ypsilanti then they should share in, uh, some of the economic profits as those small-shop factories that have maybe, uh, twenty or twenty-five men working in them at least five, there should be five blacks somewhere in there. Uh, no, I, I don’t see a, a great change in the uh, as far as the, uh, labor, uh, structure. Educational 00:38:00structure, uh, yes we have a black uh, uh, mayor, and we have a black uh, education uh, council, we have a black principal in our Ypsi High School, but what I’m saying is, I guess, uh, we just need a lesson in what blackness is. Uh, because if you, if, I don’t care if, if, if you’re the black uh, prin-principal but if you, if you can’t understand the needs of blacks, then you being a black principal don’t mean a hill of beans.

T. INGRAM: Well, how, what do you see the role of black ministers today in Ypsilanti in terms of what they, what they’ve been doing versus what they did in the past?

KEN MASHATT: Well, in the past, I think black ministers played an important 00:39:00part in Ypsilanti as far as uni-unity. Uh, I remember, uh, there used to be a community chorus made up of Baptist, Methodist, and Holiness churches, and, uh, every fifth Sunday they would go to different churches, so, every Sunday out of the month. One Sunday out of the month we would have a community sing, a community chorus, it was led by, uh, Olive, uh, Evans, who was an outstanding uh, school teacher and a music director, she was the first black to, uh, to be a music director over the whole city of Ypsilanti. She uh, organized the community chorus, made up of different churches, and the black ministers came together at these musicals, and boy, we used to have a time. [Have] a now, the attitude, I think, the atmosphere among black ministers is uh, get it all for yourself.

HELEN PALMER: This is my church, this is my church, you stay in yours.

KEN MASHATT: I, I don’t think there’s a black uh, unity among black ministers.

T. INGRAM: Why do you think that’s so, among the black ministers in Ypsilanti?

KEN MASHATT: Well, we’ve become materialists, we’ve become very conscious of finance, we’ve become uh, conscious of status, uh, how many I can get in my church, how much prestige will I have among so many people?

HELEN PALMER: And I drive a Cadillac and you don’t.

KEN MASHATT: I think that’s uh, that’s the role that the, that the, they’re playing. Uh, I, I think for years uh, they’ve asked the black ministers to come together in a, at the community sing uh, right there at the back festivals and never no cooperation from any of the pastors or ministers. And, uh, I don’t think it’s because of poor organization, I think it’s because there’s something there that has separated uh, minister from minister. 00:41:00And, and then to the, the, then to, uh, it’s, it’s not a false uh, at—it’s not a false atmosphere, because there, there has been a lot of conflict between uh, some of the Baptist churches, there, and, uh, there, there’s been conflict, and I think now that the ministry is, uh, is divided in its, uh, divided in its efforts as far as congregation-wide.

T. INGRAM: As a youth, uh, how, how do you, how do you envision in terms of were the needs of youth adequately provided for when you were young versus, uh, how do you see the needs of youth being provided today in Ypsilanti, are they any different or are they better or are they less?

HELEN PALMER: They’re less.

T. INGRAM: What were the kinds of activities and needs? Go ahead, Mrs. Palmer.

HELEN PALMER: Because I think, uh, when I was young, the, if there was a need, the people and the churches got together. Now, the people and the church don’t get together. Heck, some of the churches don’t even have missionaries anymore. And, and, you know, do things for, for the needy. Uh, a lot of ministers, and I guess some of them do, they went beyond their church members, they’d come to your house. You know, if you wasn’t a member, or you didn’t go to church, they’d come visit you. But now, there’s a lot, lot of the ministers, they don’t visit, only their own flock. Well, if I got it, why, you know, if, if, and, and, way I see it, if I’m already saved and in the church, then, uh, you go find somebody else to save. That’s the way I feel about it. But they 00:43:00don’t, um, they don’t come to, my opinion, they don’t come to the people’s rescue. Like if a lady, there was a time if, if someone died in the family all the churches’ ministers would come, they would do what they could, and nowadays, if you don’t belong to the church, uh, understand you even have to be paid to be buried from a church, to have a thing in the church.

T. INGRAM: How do you per—how, how do you perceive, uh, what did the churches do for youth back then, you know, when you were young, in terms of taking care of needs,

HELEN PALMER: But they had a lot of things, well,

T. INGRAM: versus today.

HELEN PALMER: Well, black church had a, they’d take us places, you know, the church would have church picnics,

KEN MASHATT: Mm. Them was the best parts.

HELEN PALMER: And the churches would get together, sometimes we wouldn’t go no further than Recreation Park, but there’d be, all, you know, all the churches,

KEN MASHATT: Unity.

HELEN PALMER: We’d get together and have, hey, we’re gonna have church picnic, well, all the churches would have a picnic, and it would be very well supervised, or, ’course, people back in my days, everybody didn’t have cars and buses and stuff like that so, they were limited as far as going different places, but they had get-togethers. One, one park would go over and sing at this church, and they don’t do that much anymore. They, I belonged, although that wasn’t a church organization, that I used to sing with the a cappella choir and that was ev—all the young people from every church. We had a baseball team, we won state and city championship in Ypsilanti. And, um, what else, we did a lot of things, uh, we, we had a bike shop, when it was closed, now these were the older teenagers, like eighteen, nineteen years old, we all rode bikes 00:45:00and our parents would let us go bike riding, and it would be very well supervised.

T. INGRAM: What kinds of uh, solutions or alternatives do you see, or, or, or, or think about suggesting that might enhance the com—community life among blacks in Ypsilanti, in the area of branch, churches, ministerial leadership, education or whatever, you know, what are some of these ideas?

HELEN PALMER: I think people in Ypsilanti have got afraid of each other. Now I know that sounds a little ridiculous. But when I was a kid, there wasn’t anywhere we couldn’t go at night, when I was a young woman, we could go anywhere, we could walk from Jefferson to anywhere we wanted to go. Through the field, nobody never bothered us. Now I’m older, I wouldn’t do it now, but not so many young people, they won’t do it now either.

KEN MASHATT: I think, um, I think the whole thing is, and, I, it’s, it’s, 00:46:00it’s not only a city-wide thing, it’s a national, uh, it’s a, it’s a national breakdown of, of standards and, and morals, and I often say, that I hope to God that we never get uh, uh, like the affluent society. There was a time um, that, that blacks had standards that they kept, regardless, you know, of what the, the affluent society said was all right, the blacks had standards. There was a time, when, uh, at Perry School, uh, uh, uh, Harriet School, a teacher had to be a church member.

T. INGRAM: Really?

KEN MASHATT: You see? Oh, yes. Man, teachers were just like preachers.

T. INGRAM: About what time was this?

KEN MASHATT: This was back when I was going there, this was back in the ’40s.

HELEN PALMER: Perry School was white, partially white when I went.

KEN MASHATT: And, uh, I remember, man, we, uh, we had to say, uh, Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, and the Lord’s Prayer, and we had Scripture reading. And, and, and, and it is no more. There was a time when we um, when we respected older people, not, not for well, maybe what they were or who they were but just because they were older they were Mrs., or Ms., or Mr. And it’s a breakdown, it’s just a breakdown, that’s all it is, it’s a breakdown, and we’ve become, uh, we’ve become uh, skeptical,

T. INGRAM: What do you think, what do you, what do you, what do you think we need to do in order to enhance community life among black folk, what suggestions could y—if you were to offer some suggestions for improvement,

KEN MASHATT: If I was to offer suggestions for improvement, I would start with the church, I would start with the pastor,

HELEN PALMER: start with the

KEN MASHATT: I would start with the deacon more, and then I would carry it to the street, see.

T. INGRAM: What about the area of race relations, you know,

KEN MASHATT: As, as far as race relations, I feel that, uh, love begins in the house and then it goes outdoors. I cannot say that I’m going to love that man across town when I can’t love you. We have to learn to love each other. When blacks learn to love blacks, then we were about loving that white man.

HELEN PALMER: I think black people have gotten more skeptical each other than they do the white man.

KEN MASHATT: See, love begins here, and then it goes over there. But if we can’t do it here, ain’t no sense in us talking about over there. Race relations have to begin in the black community, and there has to be a love for 00:49:00the community and for your fellow man before you can go across town talking about love.

T. INGRAM: What do you see as some of the some of the changes that might be needed to get more blacks involved in local politics in Ypsilanti?

KEN MASHATT: Well, for one thing, and, and I think this is a, that’s true, okay, one thing that we need to learn and I would to God that they could have a mass meeting, I, I think they could get people out, is to, is for the, the elite blacks, you have them here in Ypsi,

HELEN PALMER: But they separate themselves.

KEN MASHATT: quit trying to talk above the head of the everyday factory rat. I’m a factory rat, okay? Don’t talk about it because I can deal with it. But don’t, you know, they, they have that look down their nose attitude, blacks who get their position get that look down their nose attitude,

HELEN PALMER: But they’re [ ]

KEN MASHATT: Until they rid themselves of this, and say hey, look here! We’re going to do this for the good of everybody, me you, everybody else, all of us going to get a piece of the pie, you know, we are going to have to come down level, as, as the old folks used to say, deathbed level honesty and say that this is what we need, and this is what we need from you, it can be done, you see, it can be done

HELEN PALMER: But the elites, so-called, the elite blacks of Ypsilanti, as soon as they get elite, and get that piece of money, they move out.

T. INGRAM: Where do they move to?

HELEN PALMER: Into the white neighborhoods. All of them. There was a time the schoolteachers lived down the street, and around the corner, and three or four streets over, now they, they live in white neighborhoods, [stubborn] and they’re secluded.

KEN MASHATT: Well, they can move to where they want,

HELEN PALMER: Yes, but they, I’m like, [brother], now they can bring up their 00:51:00own neighborhoods, they build all these gorgeous houses over in the white folks’ neighborhood, build it in their own, just laying over there.

KEN MASHATT: Well,

HELEN PALMER: Course, my mother built this, so,

KEN MASHATT: And it’s secluded,

HELEN PALMER: Well, she wanted to be Miss out-in-the-country

T. INGRAM: Your mother built this house?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

HELEN PALMER: Uh-huh. This where my mother lived.

KEN MASHATT: See, she lived here, then she lived in my house before this. But, uh,

HELEN PALMER: Some of her friends tried to get her to build…

KEN MASHATT: No, I think until the, un—until black people can be made aware that they’re not going to be embarrassed because they don’t understand terminologies in policy-making, but at the same time, they can have an interest and an input and not be looked down on and saying, well, you don’t understand 00:52:00the situation, well, then if they don’t understand, explain it to them, put it, and put it in words and terms that they can understand, you see what I mean? I, I think there, there’s, there’s a street language that we have to learn, that, that, that blacks have to learn, or come back to, to convey, to communicate.

T. INGRAM: Uh, what, could you give me some names of, of, uh, cert—what were the names of important individuals that, that may have influenced your thinking, or, or helped you, you know, uh, grow and learn, were there any significant individuals in your life, as you were coming up, that had a real impact on your life, like you mentioned James Beatty,

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

T. INGRAM: is one, were there any others, that really had a real impact, in a positive way?

KEN MASHATT: Yeah, there was a man, I don’t know if he’s living now, but there was a 6th-grade teacher I had, and he had to me, Dubois Patton,

T. INGRAM: Black?

KEN MASHATT: He’s black.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: And he was a 6th grade teacher, uh, he, he had a great impact on me. And I think, that, that, that, I don’t know I, I was a devil. You know, I, I was something in the sixth grade. Uh, but this man took time, you know, this man took time, and, uh, kept us after school, there was about three or four of us boys, and we always was getting into something, and, but he always had time to keep us after school, sit down and talk to us, and even go to blows with us, you know, I mean, go to blows, you know, he said okay, and there was four of us one day, and uh, he said, okay, he said, you think I don’t care, he said, you think that, uh, I’m doing this for me, well, I don’t care what you think, he 00:54:00said, but you fellows are going to be something. And you know, out of the four of us, really, I think we turned out pretty good. Ain’t none of us been to jail, we got one wh—one is a foreman out at Ford’s, one is a UAW rep, and me, I, before I uh, retired from the ministry, I was a pastor, I pastored for twelve years. Uh,

T. INGRAM: Are you a minister?

KEN MASHATT: No, not now,

T. INGRAM: Oh, okay.

KEN MASHATT: I, I used to be.

T. INGRAM: At one time you were a minister

KEN MASHATT: Yes, I was a pastor.

T. INGRAM: Where, in Ypsilanti?

KEN MASHATT: No, no, never pastored in Ypsi, I pastored in Jackson, Inkster, and Detroit.

T. INGRAM: Okay.

KEN MASHATT: But, uh, not in Ypsi. Uh, but Dubois Patton, I think he had a big influence on my life, uh, back then. Another A. C. Green, Harvard Glover, well, they used to hold me while my momma whipped my butt, [laughs] they were my big brothers,

HELEN PALMER: I think your parents, really, are your biggest influence.

KEN MASHATT: Oh, well, you know, Mom and Dad

HELEN PALMER: Now, Mrs. Evans was a big influence.

KEN MASHATT: Yeah.

HELEN PALMER: And so was—

KEN MASHATT: I think my mother was the greatest influence on my life.

HELEN PALMER: Yeah.

KEN MASHATT: She really held a Christian precedence.

HELEN PALMER: Her name was Campbell, when you, when I went to school. Miss Campbell. She used to come to visit, and sit down and talk, and she’d tell you what your child needed to study, and what they didn’t, Miss Kersey would do the same thing, I don’t know if they’re still doing it or not. I don’t even know if she’s still—

KEN MASHATT: She’s retired.

HELEN PALMER: I know she

KEN MASHATT: You know she married Wallie [Won]

HELEN PALMER: Yeah, I know she did.

KEN MASHATT: Don’t put that on tape.

T. INGRAM: [laughs]

KEN MASHAT: But anyway, that’s just old talk.

T. INGRAM: Yeah, yeah, what I’d like to do then is, I’d like to thank you for allowing the opportunity to interview you but what I’d like to do is this, is, is have what we discussed today, I’ll have it transcribed, typed on paper, I’m gonna bring it back here to you all, so you can look at what has been typed, so that you can add or delete, what you feel should be there, so 00:56:00that it would more adequately reflect, okay, what you want. Okay? That’s what I’ll do.

HELEN PALMER: Well, see, if you give us enough time, what we can do—

[END OF TAPE]