Norman Kennedy Interview, date unknown

KENNEDY: You get 20 blacks waiting for 20 jobs. And that's where I got in lot of difficulty with the people that had the money. I would not do it and I told them I wouldn't do it. And I, and I, and I wouldn't do it to a black, because I was fortunate, that I had the support I had from my wife.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: And there were a lot of times, and I started out in the block plants. Lifting blocks all day long, eating cement. That's the only...and, and, and I worked there under a foreman that [laughs]...I don't know why the guy didn't want to work with us or what type of ego trip he was on, but that was hard work and that man was walking around watching us doing it. And we were doing the work, and we were satisfied getting it done as long as we done it, did it safely, it shouldn't mattered how it went. But he wanted it done his way. And, you know, and that sort of did it to me.

INGRAM: Yeah. I know.

KENNEDY: You know, I, I have a way, too. And if you tell me go from A to Z anyway you get there, but at a certain time I want you at Z on a certain 00:01:00quantity of work. Then, then why worry about how I get there? But if you're telling me I want you to go A, B, C, D, then I'll do it that way.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: But that has always been my experience in, in, in my dealing, you know, with black ministers.

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: But with, with, with blacks that, that have supervisory capacities. Uh, I might be a rebel of sorts. I, I, I'll do my job, and I'm lazy.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: But if I've got a job to do I'll do it. If I save me a couple of hours and you don't have some more work for me to do, I figure those hours are mine. I'll do something.

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: And, and I, and I think that with that type of aggressiveness, I call it, that's why I got along with a lot of whites. I, I served on United Way. I paid my dues to the community. My wife had me realize something one time and I just realized I can't, I just come home bitter. Uh, the black 400 was on my mind.

INGRAM: What is that?

KENNEDY: The black 4, well, you know, the ministers, the doctors, and their 00:02:00families and, and that's what I call them, you know, the black 400. And, and, and we weren't anywhere near that group.

INGRAM: [Laughs]

KENNEDY: Not that they had the financial that, that would imply the financial, you know, monies, but you know, it wa- it really, the doctors and the lawyers of the different, uh, churches and, and their related families and stuff.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: And, and I wasn't part of their group.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: You know, and, and I used to, that's what I used to call it.

INGRAM: So, is it safe to say that one of the problems with the black community in Ypsilanti was that it was sort of fragmented in terms of leadership?

KENNEDY: Right, right.

INGRAM: As a youth, what were some of the major problems, uh, faced by the black community in Ypsilanti, here in housing, crime, and education? What-

KENNEDY: Well-

INGRAM: were the major problems as a youth?

KENNEDY: Crime wasn't a problem.

INGRAM: Oh, it wasn't? Okay.

KENNEDY: No, really. Because, uh, just like I said, I had a school teacher that was also my Sunday school teacher. If I did something in school and re- remember, back in the '30s, early '40s, there weren't too many phones in the black community.

INGRAM: That's right. [Laughter] Yeah.

KENNEDY: But we were one of the lucky ones to have one. Uh, there was a phone call to home. There was a letter taking also and when you, when you got home you just got ready for whatever your family would put on you, and there was something put on you physically.

INGRAM: Right.

KENNEDY: And if you walk down the street and someone on the sidewalk, or you know, you pass and they saw you doing something, they'd either come up and straighten you out or let your mother know right quick. Like,

INGRAM: So in other words, as a youth, the extended family was really operating,

KENNEDY: That's right.

INGRAM: In the community where every adult was your, was your-

KENNEDY: With a lot of females, heads of households.

INGRAM: [ ] when you did something wrong?

KENNEDY: There were a lot of female heads of household, even back then. But it was just like, you walk down the street and someone,

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: if you did something wrong,

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: you knew you were gonna get it.

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: But uh, from the educational stand point, uh, I think Harriet School had some wonderful teachers. Uh, you know, we stayed in that school, and I guess 00:04:00we came together with whites in the sixth grade at Central, at old Ypsi High. We had some excellent teachers. Uh, Eugene Beatty was the principal at that time and did teach some classes. And, and, uh, Mrs. [Campbell], who later married Francois, and I almost said his name who's now married to Warren, the barber. She was an instructor. We had excellent instruction. Uh, we were taught the things, the basic things that I still remember now at the age of 52. Uh, when I went to work at the community college, it amazed me, and, uh, I'm 41 years old, or something like that, I, I guess. Somewhere around in there. That I was dealing with young people, 18 and older that, that didn't know their [time tables].

INGRAM: Has that gotten better today since [ ]?

KENNEDY: I, it, it hadn't improved that much since '77, in 1977, the last time I 00:05:00worked at the college.

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: I don't, I don't know about it today, uh, but getting back to the educational thing, there was an incentive for blacks to learn.

INGRAM: In, in what way? Elaborate.

KENNEDY: Uh, I'll tell you, well, we had, fourth grade and fifth grade, we had the old spelling bees. You know, you had 20 words a week and then each Friday you, they'd line up you on both side of the rooms and then

INGRAM: You had, you had teachers and community leaders that, that were good models that

KENNEDY: Right, right.

INGRAM: That pushed you?

KENNEDY: That's right. Uh, and then, then you had the, or there was another incentive to get good grades was the triple A patrol boy.

INGRAM: Explain that.

KENNEDY: Well, it, it, they would have a kid stand at the corner with a, with a white belt on. And you were taught the basic safety rules about crossing the street.

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: And to, to get that honor to be that, you had to have an excellent grade average. [I guess, I don't, guess, uh], they gave us excellent, superior, 00:06:00or, or satisfactory at those time. But you had to have, what I would consider now, a B average.

INGRAM: Hmm.

KENNEDY: To even be offered an opportunity to be a safety boy or a safety girl.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: And then, being that way, you had an opportunity to go to the opening game of the Detroit Tigers every year.

INGRAM: Oh, everybody wanted to aspire to be with that.

KENNEDY: That's right, but you had to do, you had to have the grades first. And then uh, Dr. Clark, Eugene Beatty, Rutherford and all them would throw you in their cars and take them on the trip. Well, I was never safety patrol.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: But I got good grades.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: And that's why I went. So, there was the incentive there, and then they were constantly telling you, "You have to learn these basic skills if you want to go to college." Well, in 1930 and the early '40s, how many of our young black people were going to college or even had the potential of going to college?

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: But they also encouraged us from the grammar school, Eugene Beatty and, and, and Mrs. Campbell, or Mrs. Warren, whatever her name is now, and a few of 00:07:00the teachers that are deceased at this time, "When you go to the high school, we want you to get on a college prep course."

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: Well, man, that was like talking Greek to us, college prep.

INGRAM: Hmm.

KENNEDY: What was this? Now why only two basic courses?

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: Home economics and college prep?

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: And, and, and, and the blacks that come out of Perry's school were all geared towards that program. We didn't know it at the time. But when we began to make our selections for classes in the ninth grade, Mr. Beatty and them would call us down and start giving us some information, "Now you know when you go here you should take this class."

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: "You should take that class." And without us really knowing, they were steering us into the college prep courses, that although you weren't going to college, you'd have them because none of the counselors, as we knew counselors back then in '44, were steering the blacks into anything. Unless it was, you know, Dr. Perry's son, Dr. Clark's son, [some of the] ministers' son. Those people were geared and pushed without any exception, but the kids whose parents 00:08:00were just on welfare and ADC, you didn't show them anything. Now if you're smart enough to pick it up, well, we were lucky we're a group of kids that went through grammar school together and we all, we modeled after one another, "What are you taking? I wanna take that."

INGRAM: So, so, in other words, pa- particular leaders in the black community belonged to, uh, the, uh, middle class or leadership class,

KENNEDY: Yeah.

INGRAM: Their kids were pushed. And those that, you know, the parents weren't employed, etc., were, were not necessarily focused and put in the direction.

KENNEDY: That's right.

INGRAM: So, you still had a certain leadership that was being pushed

KENNEDY: That's right.

INGRAM: and developed here. I'd like to know, a- ask you this question then. Those, the children of those particular leaders, why, why is it that they did not, or many did not stay in Ypsilanti, but went to different cities, you know?

KENNEDY: Well, I think it's a, it's a, it's a growing up and wanting to get to, getting, getting, getting away from your homeland. Hometown, homeland, whatever. 00:09:00And some of them, some of the parents had monies enough to send their kids away to school.

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: They didn't all stay here at Eastern, or, and some of them, perhaps, could or could not qualify for Michigan.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: But they had an opportunity to send their children away to school.

INGRAM: Oh, okay.

KENNEDY: And really, what is there to come back to in Ypsilanti?

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: You know, you know, before the '70s, and, and if you look at it right now, what is there to come back to?

INGRAM: Good question that I want to ask you then, and related to what we've been discussing. What are the major problems facing the black community in Ypsilanti today? And, and, and I’d like you to pick that up in terms of why is it that Ypsilanti has very little to offer blacks currently? Like, like the question you just raised, what is there to come back home to?

KENNEDY: No, really, oh, okay, you, you could

INGRAM: You see what I'm saying?

KENNEDY: You, uh, what jobs do we have here? We have factory jobs, we have some 00:10:00teaching jobs, uh, and really, that was about all there was to come back to. Okay? And, and some of the children who, whose parents weren't in the middle or upper middle class…you know, my dad worked in a factory, why should I work in a factory? Those that pursued higher education,

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: okay, those that did pursue higher education, you know, it, it really didn't make any difference. Uh, some of them left because of going into the military.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: They, they saw something different. They saw another part of the country that maybe they like to try their, their, their luck, basically, at, see? So, uh, now, there isn't rea- there really isn't that much industry for, for blacks to get into education or otherwise stay in Ypsilanti. Okay, Mr. Barfield has a company and, and, and he can't hire them all. Uh, we have several barbershops and, and the people aren't getting into the, the, the, the 00:11:00hairstyling that much. There's nothing really here.

INGRAM: What you're saying, there's nothing here to stimulate uh, the black community to, to strive towards something.

KENNEDY: That's right.

INGRAM: Because no, no,

KENNEDY: From, from higher up, you know, professionally or, or educationally, what is there here? There, there especially is now getting a little worse because, uh, to get into, get into the colleges, you've got to have a degree. Master's used to be a thing. Now, if you don't have a PhD,

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: you're, you're in trouble because now because of whatever the intelligence level, uh, there are more PhDs now in all fields than there were 20 years ago. Because young blacks and, and, and blacks have more PhDs now than they had in, in the '40s.

INGRAM: What could you suggest that's some viable alternatives for us to begin to envision or even to look at that would help, perhaps enhance?

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KENNEDY: They pulled it into some type of enterprise. I don't even know what you 00:12:00could do that would make any appreciable dent in the unemployment or, or future employment for our young blacks coming out. I, I really don't, don't know. Uh, and you probably have to go to a higher skill of academics, uh, you know, engineering, uh, the type of work you're in. And then, right now, the market, uh, for engineers.

[TAPE STOPPED, RESTARTED]

[STATIC RADIO NOISE]

KENNEDY: You know, those [E awards, you may not have heard of, used to fly the flags], E for efficiency and, and everyone got their little pens. Uh, we moved into the project, brand new, plaster, indoor toilets, hot water, hot forced air, heat, you know? Beautiful. And uh, we were made to feel that, like, we were 00:13:00something strange.

INGRAM: What year was this?

KENNEDY: '43.

INGRAM: '43 [ ].

KENNEDY: 1943.

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: And then when other people around were living in houses that were poorly insulated by any standards and, uh, but, uh, we were taught certain basic respects. Uh, not to interfere with somebody else's property [laughs]. You know, come home at a certain time. And, uh, I didn't have a father around.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: Grandmother and, and, and mother. But now, the little children, because of TV, because of both parents or the head of household working, the TV becomes the, the babysitter or the younger, older child becomes the babysitter and they, "Hey, I don't wanna watch little brother," so little brother develops or little sister develops on their own. And then as they mature, they've got this freeness, uh, with no guidelines or constraints and it just follows them into manhood. And you got a lot of people now with nothing to do. "So let's try 00:14:00something." What do they try? They either try the alcohol or they try the marijuana and they wanna relate to their peer groups and, and, and some of the peer group leaders don't want anything themselves. And, and a good example is this, uh, oh, six, 20, about 12 years ago. Uh, there was a young guy that had been kicked out of every school in Washtenaw and Wayne County. His last chance was a school in Ypsilanti. He had everything. He hated everything black and white, but he led a group of young, well-mannered, well-disciplined people to burn socks at the board of education building on Cross, on Forest Avenue.

INGRAM: Burn what?

KENNEDY: Their socks, in protest.

INGRAM: Hmm.

KENNEDY: But now, this guy had been kicked out of every known institution in, in, in Wayne, Canton, and Washtenaw County, but yet still he was leading. He was 00:15:00leading these kids. And we gave our children everything we could possibly give 'em. We gave 'em freedom of thought, communication. We didn't say "Okay, don't you talk to so and so today." And, and a couple kids in the neighborhood, they, in fact, they didn't burn dirty socks, they bought brand new socks to go down and burn. They had a little pride about what the socks looked like so they bought brand new socks to burn. They didn't burn some old raggedy socks. And then, uh, uh, the teachers. We had an incident where we had a, uh, uh, football homecoming queen contest. Well, this white teacher told their, all the white participants in the program, she'd already picked the winner so they didn't have to go through this ticket buying and vote getting thing. And the blacks found out about it. And listen, they wanted to tear up old Ypsi High.

INGRAM: Hmm.

KENNEDY: And in fact, we went down and re- and the only way we quelled the, the riot, that S.L. Roberson, myself, and a few people knew, collectively in between 00:16:00us, we knew all the kids [ ]

INGRAM: What year was this?

KENNEDY: Uh [PAUSE] Baby? When did [Glenda] graduate?

WOMAN: [ ].

KENNEDY: '70.

INGRAM: Oh, 1970?

KENNEDY: '70.

WOMAN: No, [ ].

KENNEDY: '69?

WOMAN: Yeah it had to be.

KENNEDY: '69. '69 and, uh, and we collectively knew almost 150 kids, all seven of us. And they were gonna turn over police cars, on, on, on Cross Street bridge, down at by Frog Island. Forest Avenue, wherever it was. And we were out there at, at night, tell, "Hey, you go home. We know you, we know you. Get away from those police cars," but those kids at that time were convinced that myself and, and, and the people my own age that, you know, uh, we didn't take enough action. But we tried to explain to them violence didn't solve anything. You know, it made you feel good for a few minutes and the forces that you could 00:17:00divide us against are gonna come back at you in so many ways you won't even know.

INGRAM: What do you think uh, this community needs in terms of, what are some, some good solutions to this, this problem? Is it just gonna sit and fester?

KENNEDY: It's, it's, it's hard, but I, I, I, I believe that we have to get back to the type of, of, uh, how we call it? Extended parent syndrome. Like if we're here and the guy next door, he becomes the parent of the child if it's, if it's on his turf. That type of attitude and, and people caring again. You know, sure, th- you know, you talk about the dope, you talk about people cutting people, but I still believe that there can be a group of people that can counteract a great deal of that. And that may mean you exerting a little violence on you-, a little force on your part to get their attention.

INGRAM: What are some of the community leaders today in, in Ypsilanti, some of 00:18:00the black community leaders, name some and what are they doing? Or are they doing anything at all?

KENNEDY: Well, I don't wish to name any, but I'll say this, the community leaders today are afraid to hurt people's feelings. And they're not saying anything. You know, that is one of my biggest problems that I had and, and I'll tell you something it almost end, well, it may have, to some degree, ended my elected political career. The swimming pool…

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: It's right now a recreation park. Jesse Rutherford, who is now deceased, happened to be somewhere and he was on Huron Clinton Metropolitan Authority.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: First black on it, representing Washtenaw County. Happened to hear of a few grants where it was something like $350,000 for the Michigan, Washtenaw County area for a swimming pool.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: Jesse got it for us. So, I don't know if you're familiar with the area, but they wanted to put it down here in Perry School, where we built a pavilion for them after '75. And I said, "No." Some of the other politicians wouldn't say 00:19:00anything. They were listening to the people. And I said, "No, I will not go to put it down here for the simple reason, it becomes an all black pool and it will not be taken care of."

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: You know, the council members can moan and groan and they’ll go down and do a little something on it today, just enough to keep you from moaning and groaning and after that. But it's now being taken care of and I was told by members of the community and, and by a person who is no longer a council member, that “We're gonna get you Kennedy. 'Cause that pool should have been in the black community.” And I told those people then why it shouldn't be in the black community.

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KENNEDY: But that's the way I feel and if I had to do it one more time,

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: I'd do it again. And I, and I, I tell you, I have had more problems with blacks.

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: And the only thing I'm trying to show them is, look, let's get together, let's do it, and I particularly don't care who gets the credit for it.

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: When I was on council, the mayor is number one person in, in, in the 00:20:00party and the number one person in the city. And if he gets credit for it,

INGRAM: [ ]

KENNEDY: everybody that knows that he's got 11 people, we had 10 people behind him. So what's the difference? When your day comes for you to be number one, you'll be number one.

INGRAM: Why do you think many of the community leaders refuse to take a more active and more considerate stance on certain positions here? Why, why is it, that it tends to be such, such a degree of passivity?

KENNEDY: Well, I think whether it's elected or, or whatever, they enjoy whatever plateau they've reached by being elected or being accepted and pushed by people and they do not wish to alienate those feelings. But I found out this, that if, and, and I've done it myself. If you try to be a good guy, you wind up being a 00:21:00bad guy. Why not tell them about it up front? "This is the way it is folks, this is the way I believe, if you could change me some way or other," well, that's not the way I think. What you think is an individual thought. I look at the city of Ypsilanti, anything, any commission I serve on, I look at what are the parameters of that commission, not what it is with me in the middle raised up a little bit. Okay, I, I, I serve on the, the, the water commission. I can't get 100 jobs for blacks because there aren't 100 jobs for blacks.

INGRAM: Right.

KENNEDY: There may be one or two jobs a year, maybe. And when I get an opportunity, I'll try to find a black, get him in line to do whatever is necessary. And we have a policy that we're trying to maintain a, a, a 10% minority count on the thing. We have another situation where if you hire a black today, you hire a white the next time or if it's a black vacated position, you 00:22:00fill it with a black. We're at 10% or better right now.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: And that's an unwritten policy. But if I'm in street and told some of the people who think that, you know, I'm being used, that, oh, man. So, you can't tell the people how you're dealing with the structure.

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: And at least one thing, Tony, I've learned and I learned it well, what the structure's all about. And I didn't learn that structure from blacks. I've been, really, I should be bitter towards some of the same people I've been talking about. But I'm not, because it wastes energy. Uh, I'd like to have a couple million dollars but it's, it's just not in the cards for me to have a couple million dollars.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: My wife and I, we have our integrity, we have our honesty, we are respected in the black and white community. A lot of people don't like what I say, they like her a lot better, she's much nicer than I am. I'm not nasty, but I just tell you, you know, I don't have the time, it won't fly. But if you would listen to me and I'll explore it with some other people, maybe we can get your 00:23:00program to go. “Well, I want the program the way I want it or no program at all.” I say, “well, that's foolish.” Some program's better than no program and 100% of your program may not be 10% worth to the community.

INGRAM: Tell me, what role is the, uh, black, uh, businessmen assumed in this community? You know.

KENNEDY: I don't, I, I, I, I don't really know.

INGRAM: Don't really know?

KENNEDY: I, I don't really know. I, I know they meet, uh,

INGRAM: Who are the key black businessmens in Ypsilanti? Uh, then, who are [ ]?

KENNEDY: That belong to the business professionally?

INGRAM: No, the, just prominent. I'm talking about Ypsilanti. I'm talking about

KENNEDY: You can start, if you, if you wanna to go dollar-wise, like well, I wouldn't say that, I'll just name without any type of [ ].

INGRAM: Yeah. [I just, I just] want to know the names

KENNEDY: [You’ve got, uh]

INGRAM: of owners of black businesses in this area.

KENNEDY: You got Lucille's Funeral Home.

INGRAM: Lu- what's the first name?

KENNEDY: That's the company. I, I, I, I, I don't, I ...

INGRAM: Okay. Lucille Funeral Home?

KENNEDY: Right. And, and it's made up of, uh, brothers and sisters of, of, of 00:24:00the lady it's named after.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: Uh, then you have your three barbershops.

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: Uh, and then you have

INGRAM: Who own those?

KENNEDY: Uh

INGRAM: J.D. Hall?

KENNEDY: [Warren Wiley] owns one.

INGRAM: [Warren Wiley]?

KENNEDY: Uh, JD Hall owns another and oh, [I’m losing names today]. Another guy owns one. So there's three owners for three barbershops.

INGRAM: [Okay].

KENNEDY: Then there's the Barfield Industries

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: owned by the Barfield family. Uh, there's another small, single, uh, Mr. Parker owns a cleaning establishment. I don't know how many people he employs.

INGRAM: What's his first name?

KENNEDY: Her- Herman Parker.

INGRAM: Herman Parker?

KENNEDY: And, uh, really, that's about all I know about.

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: Uh, there may be a couple others but I, I don't know, they either real small or, or there's, uh, Bernard Morgan in construction,

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: Lance Forbes in construction

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: and investments.

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: Uh, that's about it. The, the, you know, [running consequences], there 00:25:00may be some smaller one, one man operations or some guy who do contract cleaning or something like that. Uh, but those are the, the ones that are listed. That's okay, that pops off all the time.

INGRAM: Okay.

KENNEDY: But it's, it's, it's very difficult. I have my ideas of how things will work. I worked on urb-, I served on the urban renewal commission. We gave a group of blacks an opportunity to own a land down there on, uh, Hamilton, Harriet and, and, and uh, Huron. Uh, Huron Investments it was called. This was back in the middle '60s I guess. And there was con- some confusion and there was money enough there for those guys who do it. Herbert Francois is the guy's name. [Laughs] And, and [J. Trees] and a few other and, and then a couple of football stars from Michigan and they put in about, I guess 1,500 bucks together to make them about $20,000 of seed money. And it felt probably because a couple of guys 00:26:00who had the most money wanted to be the executive director and they felt that guy should get paid. Well, what's the guy gonna get paid out of $25,000 seed money? What's the corporation? They could have owned the whole thing. Um, they had stores that were gonna come in, they were trying to get a Holiday Inn down there and, and the government was gonna loan everything they needed. HUD was gonna give him everything because HUD wanted the project to go. Uh, the Ypsilanti urban renewal project was one of the worst run, well, not the worst, but it had more difficulties getting off the ground at 60, 61. So HUD really wanted to go. And they had a, and, and, uh, those guys, you know, [ ].

INGRAM: [ ] [They could have gotten wealthy] [ ].

KENNEDY: Oh man, they, and they could've branched out into, to, to real estate and everything else in the community that's currently be done by, you know, other people. Um, but, you know, I'm, I'm not downing anyone,

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: but those are my observations. Those are problems that I've had and, and basically a lot of the problems stem from my, my beliefs.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: Uh, I just don't believe in, in because blacks have been under the 200-year, 300-year gun that this is an incentive for someone to give you something.

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: Prepare yourself. I, I took a course in labor relations at University of Michigan in, uh, two years, it was a certificate course and you had to write a paper at the end. And I went to worker's comp, laws, psychology of labor, and all this stuff. Never thought I'd ever use it anywhere. But I was active in the union movement, in, in the buildings race. But in the process, I learned to deal with a lot of people, learned a lot of structure. Met a lot of people. And when I applied for that job at Washtenaw, I had even forgotten about it in '71. I had even forgotten that I even had the thing. And then I started pulling out things, I realized the things that I had done relating to labor relations and uh, uh, it was amazing. And you know, [ ] in all the blacks I've ever dealt with out of the colleges [ ]. Even once, after you've gotten into the building trades, take 00:28:00at least one credit hour of something, or a few credit hours of something and one course every year.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: And continue to do that. Because basically, when you finish, you finish your program, you're gonna have an equivalent to a bachelor's degree.

INGRAM: Mm-hmm.

KENNEDY: And keep adding to it. That's what I always tell them. And all I ever tell anybody I ever work with, "If you've learned something from me, pass it on to someone else."

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: Don't, don't expect anything back from it because, Tony, 90% of the things I've learned that helped me have a gainful employment was from whites. And I just, and I, and I, and I, and I've always tried to help blacks. I can't help ‘em the way they want me to help ‘em. I've opened up a lot of doors, I'd say, "So and so's coming through" and I've

[TAPE STOPPED, RESTARTED]

KENNEDY: [ ] white. [And don’t go in there] thinking that they owe you something because of the slavery days.

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: 'Cause that's the first thing they're gonna hold against you. I said, "Well, I can show you how to get over [on these people]."

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: And, and, what happened, you talk about reputation [ ], I went to the Department of Labor and le- got certified to get the GATB test.

INGRAM: Hmm.

KENNEDY: I went to Detroit Edison and, and got some stuff on the [ ], which I think is one of the worst things in the world. Unless you've got a PhD, you shouldn't even try to take the [ ].

INGRAM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KENNEDY: And, and so I've prepared myself in that way to prepare the guys I was working with. And this is all while I was working. This was nights, Saturdays, like anyone else. Like you've probably worked a lot of Saturdays and, and Sundays and did a lot of things for no pay to get where you're at today. And this is all I'm trying to tell these people. It's an easy thing. And once you do it, you get in the habit of doing it. You get in the habit of trying to improve yourself. And I did all those things and I worked with Henry [ ]. In fact, uh, I required all the guys I worked with to take the GATB test. Okay, we worked out the Ann Arbor office and the Ypsi office, you know, had some problem with it and so we had those people coming out to Washtenaw and giving it out of Washtenaw 00:30:00for us. And you know, you learn a lot things. So, what happened one time, a lot of the guys weren't passing certain sections of it. And the old rule down there was, well, look, you can't give without giving the whole [ ]. I said, "That is stupid." And I talked to the old lady down there, the, the manager. She was, I explained to her what I was doing. I said, "I don't want blacks to be given something just because [ ] 300 years."

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KENNEDY: So based on the things that we've said, these are my observations as I see 20 years of black involvement in the community. They're, they're not always what people want, but I found out this that when telling the truth and dealing with the facts, you'll go a great deal longer, further, than telling something that they, the people, what they wanna hear. And I don't remember what I told you.

INGRAM: Yeah.

KENNEDY: And then when I don't remember what I told you, zap, I'm the bad guy. So on the basis of that, those are my feelings, those are my impressions and I, and I hope they'll be help- helpful in trying, making some determinations.

INGRAM: Norman, I'd like to thank you for allowing me this opportunity to conduct this interview. One of the things we do as part of policy is that I'll have the tape transcribed and typed out and you'll receive a copy in the mail

KENNEDY: Okay.

INGRAM: of the interview already typed. It'll provide you with an opportunity to either make additions or deletions.

KENNEDY: Good.

INGRAM: And you know, to make further comment so that it’ll more reflect,

KENNEDY: All right.

INGRAM: you know, this interview that has been conducted today. Thank you.

KENNEDY: Okay.